Flower buds forming on tomato seedlings, advice needed! - Page 2

Gardeneer · May 3, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Gardeneer, I already mentioned that in my post above.

(And then over the years a few have said, when they have multiple plants of the same variety and they took buds/blossoms off some and not others of that same variety they saw no difference. All I can say is that has not been my own personal experience.)

Carolyn

Yes you said what you said ,
But I suggested to Sharon to do HER OWN experiment , not what other have done and said.
There is a difference.
Even if I repeated what you mentioned , what is the harm here ?

Gardeneer.

SharonRossy · May 3, 2015

Hi Gardeneer, as per several suggestions, I am leaving the flower heads on for the moment. I have removed some but for now I think I'll leave things and see. I have also adjusted the amount of time under the lights. Probably too much light, got them growing too fast.

**carolyn137** · May 3, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Yes you said what you said ,
But I suggested to Sharon to do HER OWN experiment , not what other have done and said.
There is a difference.
Even if I repeated what you mentioned , what is the harm here ?

Gardeneer.

What is the harm?

Please don't tempt me to answer you. So I'll flee from temptation and won't answer you, knowing you as I do.

Carolyn

bower · May 8, 2015

This is a very interesting question, especially because opposite results have been found by different growers... I could not find by an evening on google, any research on the subject to back either answer with scientific data.

But it does seem that there are both genetic and environmental variables, which could explain why different folks have reported contrary results.

I found a little research on the genetic factors involved. In tomato, there are two fructokinase enzymes, which are involved not only in the reactions that prepare fructose for use by the plant, but also in signalling and allocating the fructose resources for specific uses, in response to environmental factors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC166506/
Distinct Physiological Roles of Fructokinase Isozymes Revealed by Gene-Specific Suppression of Frk1 and Frk2 Expression in Tomato 2002

"Suppression of Frk1 expression resulted in delayed flowering at the first inflorescence... Suppression of Frk2 did not effect flowering time but resulted in growth inhibition of stems and roots, reduction of flower and fruit number, and reduction of seed number per fruit...The results collectively indicate that flowering time is specifically promoted by Frk1 and that Frk2 plays specific roles in contributing to stem and root growth and to seed development. "

Bud and flower production (Frk1) and root and stem production (Frk2) are under separate genetic control, but since the substrate being allocated is the same (fructose) these two isozymes must signal one another to partition the resource in response to environmental conditions - which may include: amount of light/availability of photosynthetic resources, nutrient shortages, cold or heat stress, water stress....others.

Besides the variation in a grower's conditions, and the genetic variation in the specific varieties they are growing and how Frk1-Frk2 respond to the "small root volume" stress, there is another question too, whether the gene expression induced by specific conditions in the plant will actually persist when those conditions change, and affect production over the whole season, ie chronic suppression of Frk2 as described in the research - smaller plant, fewer fruit etc.

I think there's no question that some varieties respond badly to stresses as seedlings, and may have a poor outcome for the whole season as a result. But there's also no doubt that there are varieties that tolerate more stress, and rebound in response to improved conditions.

I hope the scientists do some more research on fructokinases in tomato, there are many questions left to answer. On very limited personal observations, I suspect that the genetic variation in fructokinase dynamics is pretty huge... with extreme responses at either end of the scale.

SharonRossy · May 9, 2015

Hi Bower, so what I've done, upon your advice, which I should have realized myself, was that the lights were on too long. I cut back to 16 hours and now 14. The plants don't look stressed. They are mostly in 4" pots that are deeper than the regular 4" pots. I found them at a hydroponic store. I have a fan on keeping the plants cool and with a gentle motion and they are quite hardy.
I am pinching off the buds for the most part but I am leaving some on in the same variety just to see how one fairs over the other. My potting mix has a very low dose of nutrients and I have given a weak dosage one time.
I don't know what to say except the plants look healthy and if I wasn't away next week, I would start hardening them off. So my question is do they remain under the lights until I start hardening them off or can I move them to a much sunnier location for the four days I'm gone? I guess I didn't realize how powerful the t5 high put lights are! Lesson learned for next year, and I will start later my germination once again!
Thanks Bower. I appreciate your help. Sharon

bower · May 9, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by SharonRossy

Hi Bower, so what I've done, upon your advice, which I should have realized myself, was that the lights were on too long. I cut back to 16 hours and now 14. The plants don't look stressed. They are mostly in 4" pots that are deeper than the regular 4" pots. I found them at a hydroponic store. I have a fan on keeping the plants cool and with a gentle motion and they are quite hardy.
I am pinching off the buds for the most part but I am leaving some on in the same variety just to see how one fairs over the other. My potting mix has a very low dose of nutrients and I have given a weak dosage one time.
I don't know what to say except the plants look healthy and if I wasn't away next week, I would start hardening them off. So my question is do they remain under the lights until I start hardening them off or can I move them to a much sunnier location for the four days I'm gone? I guess I didn't realize how powerful the t5 high put lights are! Lesson learned for next year, and I will start later my germination once again!
Thanks Bower. I appreciate your help. Sharon

Sharon, if I were you I'd stick with the lights until you get back. The sunny window can get much hotter and they could be stressed out with no one to take care.. under lights should be a more moderate temperature which they're used to.

You guys have had some really hot weather! It sounds like you could harden off and plant when you get back, no worries.

Cool that you are pinching some and not others in the same variety - please let us know which varieties and what happens. You may even see a difference pretty soon, if there's going to be one.

SharonRossy · May 9, 2015

Hi Bower, yes that's what I'm doing, keeping them under the lights. Yes we've had some unreal weather. I think it will be a quick hardening off and into their summer homes! How are your little guys doing? I'll keep an update on which tomatoes have the buds and how they do.

bower · May 9, 2015

Sharon, I'm having a blast watching my F2's, and yes, I wanted them to bud before transplant so I can select the early ones, I'm not too worried about it but I do try to get them planted by the time they open flowers - they are in beer cups so a smaller root space than yours. They're drying out twice a day now if it gets sunny, and are overdue for bigger space.

I have a pic to share with you about this question, how do buds affect growth on different plants in the short term, anyway. I had an Indian Stripe and a half dozen F2's of the cross with Black Early together in a washtub, keeping them together so conditions are as equal as possible. About the time buds started to form, I inspected and shuffled the plants around and made notes and labeled the different plants, that was April 26. At that time Indian Stripe was the tallest, and had tiny buds. There were two F2's about the same height and stage of bud development, and I put them in the same row as most similar to the parent. The plant with the most developed buds was the shortest of the lot.

The pic of these plants was taken May 6, before transplant of IS and the most precocious F2. Indian Stripe is in the front row on the far right, and the two plants next to it are the ones that were the same height as it on April 26. The precocious, short plant is one in the back row. As you can see, all the F2's continued to get taller as their buds developed, but Indian Stripe really slowed growth after forming buds and only 9 days later it is much smaller than the other plants!

So I've planted this Indian Stripe in the same tub as its most precocious F2 offspring, which is already starting to open flower (and certainly didn't slow shoot growth either). I'll let you know how they do, or if the IS is stunted in any way by the experience of having buds before planting - I don't expect it but I will pay attention and tell the truth (heck why not).

Best of luck with your tomatoes, looks like you're in for a good summer.

SharonRossy · May 10, 2015

Hi Bower, wow, amazing. I am always so impressed when people like you and Karen and all the others cross plants to develop new ones. That is so out of my comfort zone! Personally, buds or no buds, IS is always slow to develop for me. I think you've grown it already, but if not, it isn't a tall plant to begin with. I have to go and check but I'm pretty sure one IS started forming buds and I might have pinched it off, but I'll look later and let you know.
and in the meantime, Go Habs Go!
I'm growing Bear Creek for the first time and it's not a particularly robust plant.
I'm encouraged by the fact that you kept the flower buds on and it doesn't seem to be having a negative effect. Listen, all we can do is try. I'm more tempted to leave the buds on the earlier varieties, but at this point, I can't remember what I did to which plant.
When I water them I'll make notes. It's true they are becoming increasing in need of constant watering. Makes me nervous when I'm gone next week and have to leave my son in charge!

May 3, 2015	#17
SharonRossy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,140	Hi Gardeneer, as per several suggestions, I am leaving the flower heads on for the moment. I have removed some but for now I think I'll leave things and see. I have also adjusted the amount of time under the lights. Probably too much light, got them growing too fast.

May 8, 2015	#19
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	This is a very interesting question, especially because opposite results have been found by different growers... I could not find by an evening on google, any research on the subject to back either answer with scientific data. But it does seem that there are both genetic and environmental variables, which could explain why different folks have reported contrary results. I found a little research on the genetic factors involved. In tomato, there are two fructokinase enzymes, which are involved not only in the reactions that prepare fructose for use by the plant, but also in signalling and allocating the fructose resources for specific uses, in response to environmental factors. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC166506/ Distinct Physiological Roles of Fructokinase Isozymes Revealed by Gene-Specific Suppression of Frk1 and Frk2 Expression in Tomato 2002 "Suppression of Frk1 expression resulted in delayed flowering at the first inflorescence... Suppression of Frk2 did not effect flowering time but resulted in growth inhibition of stems and roots, reduction of flower and fruit number, and reduction of seed number per fruit...The results collectively indicate that flowering time is specifically promoted by Frk1 and that Frk2 plays specific roles in contributing to stem and root growth and to seed development. " Bud and flower production (Frk1) and root and stem production (Frk2) are under separate genetic control, but since the substrate being allocated is the same (fructose) these two isozymes must signal one another to partition the resource in response to environmental conditions - which may include: amount of light/availability of photosynthetic resources, nutrient shortages, cold or heat stress, water stress....others. Besides the variation in a grower's conditions, and the genetic variation in the specific varieties they are growing and how Frk1-Frk2 respond to the "small root volume" stress, there is another question too, whether the gene expression induced by specific conditions in the plant will actually persist when those conditions change, and affect production over the whole season, ie chronic suppression of Frk2 as described in the research - smaller plant, fewer fruit etc. I think there's no question that some varieties respond badly to stresses as seedlings, and may have a poor outcome for the whole season as a result. But there's also no doubt that there are varieties that tolerate more stress, and rebound in response to improved conditions. I hope the scientists do some more research on fructokinases in tomato, there are many questions left to answer. On very limited personal observations, I suspect that the genetic variation in fructokinase dynamics is pretty huge... with extreme responses at either end of the scale.

May 9, 2015	#20
SharonRossy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,140	Hi Bower, so what I've done, upon your advice, which I should have realized myself, was that the lights were on too long. I cut back to 16 hours and now 14. The plants don't look stressed. They are mostly in 4" pots that are deeper than the regular 4" pots. I found them at a hydroponic store. I have a fan on keeping the plants cool and with a gentle motion and they are quite hardy. I am pinching off the buds for the most part but I am leaving some on in the same variety just to see how one fairs over the other. My potting mix has a very low dose of nutrients and I have given a weak dosage one time. I don't know what to say except the plants look healthy and if I wasn't away next week, I would start hardening them off. So my question is do they remain under the lights until I start hardening them off or can I move them to a much sunnier location for the four days I'm gone? I guess I didn't realize how powerful the t5 high put lights are! Lesson learned for next year, and I will start later my germination once again! Thanks Bower. I appreciate your help. Sharon

May 10, 2015	#24
SharonRossy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,140	Hi Bower, wow, amazing. I am always so impressed when people like you and Karen and all the others cross plants to develop new ones. That is so out of my comfort zone! Personally, buds or no buds, IS is always slow to develop for me. I think you've grown it already, but if not, it isn't a tall plant to begin with. I have to go and check but I'm pretty sure one IS started forming buds and I might have pinched it off, but I'll look later and let you know. and in the meantime, Go Habs Go! I'm growing Bear Creek for the first time and it's not a particularly robust plant. I'm encouraged by the fact that you kept the flower buds on and it doesn't seem to be having a negative effect. Listen, all we can do is try. I'm more tempted to leave the buds on the earlier varieties, but at this point, I can't remember what I did to which plant. When I water them I'll make notes. It's true they are becoming increasing in need of constant watering. Makes me nervous when I'm gone next week and have to leave my son in charge!