De-hybridized tomatos - Page 2

silverseed · June 30, 2015

Can anyone please help me and name some of the good open pollinated versions of these older hybrids. I have been searching the Seed Savers Catalog and the internet but not coming up with very much. I would love to get seed from some of these and grow them out next year and see how they compare with their hybrid counterparts. I'm thinking if I could get seed from some of these varities such as Ramapo for example that Carolyn said was spot on the hybrid then it might be a best of both worlds kind of thing, If they have the good qualities of the hybrid, Why not. If anyone would know it would be the members on here I'm thinking. Help please.

NarnianGarden · June 30, 2015

double...

NarnianGarden · June 30, 2015

Another question on the technicalities on hybrid production:

I know some of these information on seed production has been discussed at TVille before, but I still don't understand how those who are responsible for the breeding program can be sure that the parenting lines behave exactly the same every time.
In other words, when the last breeding lines are crossed, and the following fruits harvested and the seeds processed (by manual labor?), say, for example for SunGold, or Sweet Million... How can those doing the labor be sure that the cross works every time accurately, and the results are what they should be?

When a customer buys for a pack of seeds, let's say Sweet Million F1.. how can they be certain that the genes have been united in the correct way, and there have been no surprises?
Given all the genetic variables, I can't understand how the breeders can avoid unnecessary risks and be sure that the end product is always what it should be...

What if the final parenting lines suddendly behave in an unexpected way, and produce something that is not Sweet Million? (might be tastier, or then not...)

AlittleSalt · July 1, 2015

I have two accidental F1 crosses growing as F2s in seed trays. They are the first to come up in the pro mix cells. They are at the starting point growing their embryotic leaves... "Cotyledon leaves" I'm hoping to plant these out on the first of August.

Sungold F2, Celebrity F2, and Juliet F2s are rapidly growing as well. They are already in solo cups growing in potting mix. I'll be planting out those in solo cups around July 15.

silverseed, we often learn by doing. Just do it.

silverseed · July 1, 2015

Not wanting to create my own or anything like that. Just trying to find out which of the older hybrids that have been dehybridized with good results and grow them. Just not finding much info on those.

Gardeneer · July 1, 2015

I know there is an OP version of Big Beef (F1), as an example.
I am growing both of them.

I think you can de-hybridize a hybrid not an OP, thus the word "de-hybridizing".
But if you want to know how to stabilize a hybrid, that is not necessarily "de-hybridizing".
Carolyn is the one who can put you in the right direction.

Gardeneer

Wi-sunflower · July 1, 2015

Carolyn, there is no Petoseed or Asgrow any more. ALL of those companies are under the 1 Seminis umbrella. http://www.seminis-us.com/products/

When I was couldn't find the specific varieties I used to grow I searched a lot of commercial web sites. Most info kept coming up "Seminis". On their web site you can find a link "where to buy" with most of the big commercial (bulk) sellers. I wanted at least a lb of a couple of the varieties (squash). But when none of those sellers had the varieties I wanted I used the Seminis "contact" email to ask them directly who was selling the varieties I wanted. The answer was "no one, the variety is discontinued".

Carol

silverseed · July 1, 2015

Thanks Gardeneer, I will look for Big Beef then, I have found a source for Ramapo o.p and ordered some seed, I thought I saw on here where someone said there was an o.p version of Celebrity but have searched to find that thread again with no luck so far.

AlittleSalt · July 1, 2015

I have seeds from Brandy Boy F-11. I'm not sure how many are in the pack, but I could send you some silverseed.

silverseed · July 1, 2015

Thanks AlittleSalt, Now we are making progress, I will send you a p.m about that. That makes 3 so far then Ramapo, Big Beef and Brandy Boy.

silverseed · July 1, 2015

Hi AliitleSalt, I would love to get some of the Brandy Boy seed from you, I have tomato seed that I could trade you, I have Egyptian, Lenny & Gracie's Kentucky Heirloom (yellow), German Giant Tree and Kellogg's Breakfast or can pay you for the price of seeds. Please P.m me I just sent you one and could not get it to work.

OldHondaNut · September 7, 2015

I tried and failed to de-hybrid Bush Big Boy. If you don't remember, it was looking like Burpee was going to discontinue this one about 6 years ago. It had performed well for me and earned a spot in my garden. It appears to have come back and I bought several packs of seed and put them in the fridge.

Keep in mind that any hybrid can be gone tomorrow without notice. They do EVERY year.

Fred Hempel · September 7, 2015

In my experience, many good hybrids are a very unique balance of traits (many in the heterozygous form) that absolutely can not be de-hybridized to get a OP of the same quality. Precisely because OPs, by definition, are not heterozygous, but homozygous at most all loci.

That said, some hybrids can be dehybridized to get pretty nice OP versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverseed

This is one subject that the more I read about the more questions that I seem to have, Perhaps someone on here more familiar with the subject can clarify things for me, What are the pros and cons of the de-hybridized open pollinated versions VS. the original hybrid versions and are these true o.p representations of the original or not ? Also which O.P versions are available and what are some of the best ? I will try to attach an article about one such example below. Thanks. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014...ly-girl-tomato

joseph · September 8, 2015

NarnianGarden: Companies that produce hybrid seeds have quality assurance departments... I suspect that each worker is carefully trained, and that ongoing evaluations are made of each laborer's performance... I suspect that seeds are not immediately harvested and sold. I suspect that they are produced, and stored in cold conditions, and that each lot of hybrid seed is grown out to assure that it complies with standards. I suspect that the parent lines are not produced every year, but that decades worth of seed may be stored so that the line is the same this year as last year because it's merely taken out of cold storage as needed.

There are plenty of examples in the seed industry where varieties have been lost to all sorts of unfortunate circumstances...

July 1, 2015	#20
silverseed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Stow, Ohio Posts: 41	Not wanting to create my own or anything like that. Just trying to find out which of the older hybrids that have been dehybridized with good results and grow them. Just not finding much info on those. Last edited by silverseed; July 1, 2015 at 02:15 AM.

July 1, 2015	#26
silverseed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Stow, Ohio Posts: 41	Hi AliitleSalt, I would love to get some of the Brandy Boy seed from you, I have tomato seed that I could trade you, I have Egyptian, Lenny & Gracie's Kentucky Heirloom (yellow), German Giant Tree and Kellogg's Breakfast or can pay you for the price of seeds. Please P.m me I just sent you one and could not get it to work. Last edited by silverseed; July 1, 2015 at 11:42 AM.

June 30, 2015	#16
silverseed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Stow, Ohio Posts: 41	Can anyone please help me and name some of the good open pollinated versions of these older hybrids. I have been searching the Seed Savers Catalog and the internet but not coming up with very much. I would love to get seed from some of these and grow them out next year and see how they compare with their hybrid counterparts. I'm thinking if I could get seed from some of these varities such as Ramapo for example that Carolyn said was spot on the hybrid then it might be a best of both worlds kind of thing, If they have the good qualities of the hybrid, Why not. If anyone would know it would be the members on here I'm thinking. Help please.

June 30, 2015	#17
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	double...

July 1, 2015	#19
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I have two accidental F1 crosses growing as F2s in seed trays. They are the first to come up in the pro mix cells. They are at the starting point growing their embryotic leaves... "Cotyledon leaves" I'm hoping to plant these out on the first of August. Sungold F2, Celebrity F2, and Juliet F2s are rapidly growing as well. They are already in solo cups growing in potting mix. I'll be planting out those in solo cups around July 15. silverseed, we often learn by doing. Just do it.

July 1, 2015	#21
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	I know there is an OP version of Big Beef (F1), as an example. I am growing both of them. I think you can de-hybridize a hybrid not an OP, thus the word "de-hybridizing". But if you want to know how to stabilize a hybrid, that is not necessarily "de-hybridizing". Carolyn is the one who can put you in the right direction. Gardeneer

July 1, 2015	#22
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Carolyn, there is no Petoseed or Asgrow any more. ALL of those companies are under the 1 Seminis umbrella. http://www.seminis-us.com/products/ When I was couldn't find the specific varieties I used to grow I searched a lot of commercial web sites. Most info kept coming up "Seminis". On their web site you can find a link "where to buy" with most of the big commercial (bulk) sellers. I wanted at least a lb of a couple of the varieties (squash). But when none of those sellers had the varieties I wanted I used the Seminis "contact" email to ask them directly who was selling the varieties I wanted. The answer was "no one, the variety is discontinued". Carol

September 7, 2015	#27
OldHondaNut Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Zone 8a Posts: 120	I tried and failed to de-hybrid Bush Big Boy. If you don't remember, it was looking like Burpee was going to discontinue this one about 6 years ago. It had performed well for me and earned a spot in my garden. It appears to have come back and I bought several packs of seed and put them in the fridge. Keep in mind that any hybrid can be gone tomorrow without notice. They do EVERY year.

September 8, 2015	#29
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	NarnianGarden: Companies that produce hybrid seeds have quality assurance departments... I suspect that each worker is carefully trained, and that ongoing evaluations are made of each laborer's performance... I suspect that seeds are not immediately harvested and sold. I suspect that they are produced, and stored in cold conditions, and that each lot of hybrid seed is grown out to assure that it complies with standards. I suspect that the parent lines are not produced every year, but that decades worth of seed may be stored so that the line is the same this year as last year because it's merely taken out of cold storage as needed. There are plenty of examples in the seed industry where varieties have been lost to all sorts of unfortunate circumstances...