A question about OP Tomatoes and Yield

[Cole_Robbie]

Originally Posted by joseph

I believe that cross-pollination is more common than people are willing to admit. In a crop with such a narrow genetic base as tomatoes, cross pollination events can be particularly difficult to spot. I believe that this sort of change happens a lot, and that it isn't noticed.

Interesting.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Worth1

We need to move to Ecuador.

Worth

Austin is better.

Gardeneer

[feldon30]

For seeds to "adapt" that quickly, you'd have to believe that genetic mutation is so widespread that varieties change significantly from year-to-year, which would kind of turn the whole "saving seed to preserve heritage varieties" concept on its ear. To grow "Cherokee Purple", we'd have to have seeds frozen from 1899.

[bower]

I stumbled on some recent research about epigenetic inheritance in plants, which is linked here:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=38840

Just to summarize, there are two redundant genes that are responsible for 'resetting' epigenetic states so that they are not passed on to offspring, except where there's a double mutant.

So it is possible, but would be rare compared to those that don't pass on epigenetic adaptations, as far as the present science goes.

Joseph has a point too, about genetic potential that is lurking in the 'unstable' fraction of DNA. I think that you might find that potential in some plants, but not in others.

For those of us in cold climates, every year we expose the young seedlings to cold conditions and they respond epigenetically by expressing what resistance they have. So it might be difficult to identify an inherited change, as opposed to a change that is just induced again year after year by cultural practice.

I can tell you from experience though that there are tomato varieties which do really poorly after too much of a cold stress. Others may be a few days later but not permanently bothered.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

While I understand that from a scientific standpoint it isn't possible, based on personal experience I like to think some acclimation can happen. Again and again I have had varieties that do so much better in terms of yield when grown from saved seeds in subsequent years. Maybe it's just a fluke, but that's been my experience.

I've had the same thing happen but I don't consider it adaptation in a genetic sense, I don't think.

It happened most when I got varieties from John Rahart, whose father was Andrew Rahart, who lived and collected varieties from just above NYC.

John is/was a dentist who lived way out west and when I noted that and posted about it many years ago there was some vigorous dicussion about the possibility of mycorhizzae being responsible,which of course does not rule out epigenetics or anything else but is something else to consider.

I sat here and came up with two of Andrews varieties that I think many of you know of but there were many more.

One is Pink Ping Pong and the other one is

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...%27s_Jumbo_Red

Well that was helpful since I saw that John lived in Wyoming.

And I just remembered another one which is

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Myona

I had to check an older SSE Yearbook and yes, John Rahart SSE SSE listed it in 1986 and it's been SSE listed for many years and still listed in the 2015 Yearbook. But as happened for many varieties the histories and who first listed something often doesn't go with new listings. There are a few SSE members,though,who try very hard to maintain thehistory of a variety they are currently listing.

Two of them I would single out for that would be Neil Lockhart in IL and Bill Minkey in WI and probably a few more I've forgotten about. You know, the "older" SSE members who have been around since the late 80's to early 90's.

Carolyn

[joseph]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

John is/was a dentist who lived way out west and when I noted that and posted about it many years ago there was some vigorous dicussion about the possibility of mycorhizzae being responsible

Excellent thing to think about!!! Thanks. Tomatoes being in a symbiotic relationship with specific micro-organisms in specific gardens. The micro-organisms might not be carried on to the new garden. I'm liking it!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

Excellent thing to think about!!! Thanks. Tomatoes being in a symbiotic relationship with specific micro-organisms in specific gardens. The micro-organisms might not be carried on to the new garden. I'm liking it!

Precisely Joseph,which is why it interested me as well.

Carolyn

[pmcgrady]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Just my opinion because some folks here feel otherwise.
I think it takes many many years for something to adapt to an environment.


Worth

Agree 100%

[Father'sDaughter]

Originally Posted by joseph

Excellent thing to think about!!! Thanks. Tomatoes being in a symbiotic relationship with specific micro-organisms in specific gardens. The micro-organisms might not be carried on to the new garden. I'm liking it!

Would make sense to me, though you two are the experts in these matters😀😀

This is why I specifically used the word acclimate instead of adapt. And what I said I experienced doesn't hold true for all varieties I've tried. Some do just as poorly or even worse the next time I grow them, and those are the ones I give up on.

[Al@NC]

I think I got into the idea that crops adapted quickly by looking at JohnnySeeds.com. Even though I see them talking about F1's they throw the term "Widely Adapted" around alot!

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-5879-valley-girl.aspx

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7952-celebrity.aspx

[joseph]

When I make potting mixes, I include Mycorrhiza, Rhizobacteria, other micro-organisms, and fungi. I include species that are native to my garden, the nearby woods, and species from an inoculation mix. I do it mostly because I don't like the idea of starting plants in "sterile" potting mixes.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Al@NC

I think I got into the idea that crops adapted quickly by looking at JohnnySeeds.com. Even though I see them talking about F1's they through the term "Widely Adapted" around alot!

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-5879-valley-girl.aspx

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-7952-celebrity.aspx

They should say widely cultivated.

[seaeagle]

[QUOTE=joseph;527173]When I make potting mixes, I include Mycorrhiza, Rhizobacteria, other micro-organisms, and fungi. I include species that are native to my garden, the nearby woods, and species from an inoculation mix. I do it mostly because I don't like the idea of starting plants in "sterile" potting mixes.[/QUOTE

Great idea, that has to help the plants.Sterile potting mixes should never be used anyway as it is one of the main causes of damping-off in seedlings and small plants.That and over watering.The soil needs to be alive with fungi and bacteria to fight off the damping-off fungi.When in doubt, I just look at nature, no sterile soil out there.

[UFXEFU]

Originally Posted by joseph

When I make potting mixes, I include Mycorrhiza, Rhizobacteria, other micro-organisms, and fungi. I include species that are native to my garden, the nearby woods, and species from an inoculation mix. I do it mostly because I don't like the idea of starting plants in "sterile" potting mixes.

"

Do you sow seed in that type of mix or do you use a sterile mix for see sowing, then pot up to that mix?

[joseph]

I start seeds in non sterile mix. I pot-up into non-sterile mix.

As a plant breeder, I do not want families of plants growing in my garden that are so maladjusted that they can't deal with damping off or with other microbial problems.

I have a similar attitude towards mushrooms. I grow mushrooms in non-sterile conditions.