Comparisons: Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe

[sjamesNorway]

Thanks, everyone, for all the interesting information so far. For those of you who will be doing comparisons this year, it would be great if you would keep us posted. Although it's true that experience will vary from garden to garden, I think relative comments about similar varieties grown together are among the most valuable. For those of us who don't have room to experiment, your comments can help us narrow down which varieties to try.

Steve

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

. . . I still haven't heard back from Marina, so maybe best to put that project aside for now . . .

Oh, I'm planning to do as I said above, weather, health etc. permitting . . . I think there is enough evidence of heartiness in Indian Stripe that there is potential for an Indian Stripe Heart that reliably produces hearts whenever and wherever it's grown . . . though I don't think we've seen it yet . . . and I'm not sure the marginal heartiness we've seen to this point can be evaluated unless Indian Stripe Potato Leaf and the original Indian Stripe Regular leaf are grown for comparison, because one can certainly see some heartish fruit in those from time to time.

I think you're right not to press it with Marina, it's easy to think of all sorts of reasons she may not have pursued the seed issue and may or may not get back to it in future.

If seed from Marina, or anyone else who's seen Indian Stripe hearts, turns up, it would be good to add to the comparison but otherwise we'll see what we'll see. I hope to at least see a reasonable amount of Indian Stripe fruit to use and to cache for winter, and as long as that happens, the space and effort isn't wasted.

And of course it may be that all we'll see is fat voles.

[charley]

this year im planting daniel burson,big cheef,donnas dusty rose,black berry,( indian zebra indian stripe),osena black,margarets curtian,grosse verte rose,grafted cherokee purple and nigella de almoguera all in one row for comparison but i will say a few are a couple week behind i was late trying to get seeds

[amideutch]

Steve, if you need seed for Spudakee let me know.

Ami

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Steve, if you need seed for Spudakee let me know.

Ami

Many thanks for the offer, Ami. I grew it last year, and have saved seeds.

Steve

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

OK, it's clear to me that what you consider variations is not what I mean as to variations

I meant the IS/IZ situation and don't consider the IS PL or the the IS heart a variation . . .

Yes, terminology can create confusion sometimes. Trying to define everything and avoid ambiguities is one reason I sometimes write such long posts. [g]

I'd call Indian Stripe Potato Leaf, and Heart? variations of original Indian Stripe because they are all essentially Indian Stripe but have significant and (hopefully) consistent differences in form.

But I was interested that you thought of Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra as variations, as I thought your view was that they were exactly the same thing sporting the two different names that Burson had used when referring to them -- indistinguishable from one another if not wearing nametags.

Did I misunderstand or do you think that they have diverged a bit since being distributed and grown under different names or did I understand correctly that you think Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra are the same animal wearing different hats?

[b54red]

I have grown almost all of the blacks mentioned in this thread and usually side by side with each other for several years. The last few years I dropped CP because of inconsistent production though I loved the taste. I also am dropping Black from Tula though it is also quite good it doesn't seem to be as productive in the intense heat down here but it does well in the fall and spring.

As for consistent production ISPL is usually the top producer of the black varieties and it usually produces longer than any of the others but it also usually has slightly smaller fruit due to the numbers I guess. Spudakee, JD's and IS are close behind ISPL in production with usually larger fruit overall. For large very tasty black tomatoes I think JD's Special C Tex is the top producer but it is also the most susceptible to gray mold.

I also try to grow Berkeley Tie Die Pink every year along with Carbon. Both of these are top notch producers in the fall for me. I also grow a volunteer black that doesn't seem to be like any of the others because it is so much darker and leans towards Black Krim in flavor but with less tendency to split. Last year it was a potato leaf plant so possibly it is an offshoot of Spudakee. I will see if it retains that super dark color again this year along with that superior taste or if it just turns out to have been a fluke in the coloring and taste last year.

I am a real fan of the black tomatoes and haven't found any that I really hate. I think the environment makes the most difference in the performance of the black tomatoes and especially as it affects their flavor. I have found that most of the black tomatoes have far better flavor during the time when the temperatures are very high with little moisture. The full flavor of many of them doesn't really come through until temps are consistently above 90. They are the last varieties that I set out in the garden each year because though production may be higher in the cooler weather of spring the flavor just isn't.

Bill

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Yes, terminology can create confusion sometimes. Trying to define everything and avoid ambiguities is one reason I sometimes write such long posts. [g]

I'd call Indian Stripe Potato Leaf, and Heart? variations of original Indian Stripe because they are all essentially Indian Stripe but have significant and (hopefully) consistent differences in form.

But I was interested that you thought of Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra as variations, as I thought your view was that they were exactly the same thing sporting the two different names that Burson had used when referring to them -- indistinguishable from one another if not wearing nametags.

Did I misunderstand or do you think that they have diverged a bit since being distributed and grown under different names or did I understand correctly that you think Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra are the same animal wearing different hats?

Donna Nelson who sent me seeds originally said that Burson Sr told her that he called them either IS or IZ. I asked her which one should I choose and she said that was up to me. I opted to call it IS since at the time there were other tomato varieties around that had Zebra as part of the name and I wanted to hopfully avoid confusion.

But when Travis got the ones from Burson's freezer they were labelled IZ so he started called it IZ instead of IS. And that started maybe 1000,, threads where his friends called it IZ and listed and showed pictures of it as IZ.

As I said earlier, Travis then decided to call it IS and I was very pleased about that.

There's another aspect to this as well.

Here's a cut and paste from Travis' post above.

(Indian Stripe: Repeatedly called, but never proven, "a strain of Cherokee Purple," it is indeed very similar in appearance, depending on the seed source. However, upon obtaining seeds directly from the original source, I found Indian Stripe also expresses variations in plant habit and fruit size and production. Far less susceptibility to catfacing and BER, but occasionally will zipper.
My initial seed purchase (a 2005 seed lot) was from Victory Seed Co., and those seed produced several plants that matched Carolyn Male's description of Indian Stripe to a "T." However, the same seed lot also gave me off types in pink fruit, as well as some variation in fruit shapes, plant to plant, grown side by side in 2006, including some high round shapes which upon reflection cause me to not be surprised that eventually an "Indian Stripe Heart" expressed itself in Washington State from saved seed I sent to a lady calling herself Bluelytes.
By comparison, the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer in 2008 produced fruit in 2009 significantly larger in size and darker in color when grown side by side with the saved seed from the Victory Seed Co. germplasm.
Indian Stripe is an earlier variety than Cherokee Purple, and I have gotten ripe tomatoes in 70 days from Indian Stripe compared with Cherokee Purple in 82 days, grown in the same garden, same years. Indian Stripe, after the off-types were culled out of the seed pool, also produces more uniform fruit sizes, and has been more tolerant of Early Blight, outgrowing and staying ahead of the affliction.)

OK, a few points to be made by me.

IS was never proven to be a strain of CP. the first person I sent some of Donna's seeds to was to Craig L , the original source of CP ,and he thought it was. No one can definitely claim that IS and IZ are exactly the same unless DNA restriction analyses are done. And the same goes for the many different so called Strains of Mortgage Lifters and Rutgers and Brandywines (pink), etc.

Travis said he bought seeds from Mike at Victory seed for IS and got IS and some offtypes. I think it was Craig, not me, who sent the IS seeds to Mike since he and Mike are good friends, so Craig sent his saved seeds and Mike does all his seed production, so right there seeds have passed through several folks with possible changes. What Travis got from Mike he said was larger and darker, so was it from Craigs seed production or his? Possibly from Mike since I assume that Craig just sent him starter seeds.

I wanted to check some dates so fetched Tania's page for it

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Stripe

And Neil Lockhart got it from me in 2004, and I would have submitted my listing for it in the Fall of 2003 so I must have done the initial seed production in the summer of 2003 and at two places. Still driving the hour south to Charlie Brizzells place where I had a whole field to myself and I think up here where I am now where I was growing at another place.

Summary? the seeds for IS have gone through many hands in terms of seed production for commercial needs as well as grown in lots of home gardens and then offered in seed offers where yet again there could have been subtle changes. As well as in many trade situations

After I fell on Dec 12th, 2004 that put me in this walker permanently I was still having seedlings raised for me and shipped up here by Craig, by Martha Hufford in MD as well as Nancy here in upstate NY. I cant tell you my source from which person I had Freda grow it for me, but what I got here was always what I started out with from original seeds from Donna Nelson.

Best I can do JLJ, best I can do in terms of trying to descibe the path IS has taken and even Tania, with different sources got the same as I did.

Hope that does help a bit,

Carolyn

[travis]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

What Travis got from Mike he said was larger and darker, so was it from Craigs seed production or his? Possibly from Mike since I assume that Craig just sent him starter seeds.

Carolyn

Actually, what I said many times, and repeated in this thread above, is that the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freeze produced larger and darker fruit than did the seeds I bought from Victory Seed Co.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Actually, what I said many times, and repeated in this thread above, is that the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freeze produced larger and darker fruit than did the seeds I bought from Victory Seed Co.

Yes Bill,my error.

When I just came back here to my computer I looked at the notes I made from your above post that I had cut and pasted and saw that error in my notes I'd made

So thanks for calling my attention to that error.

And when I'm perfect, I'll have someone post my obit here at Tville. I haven't yet decided who that might be, but surely someone much younger than I am and no,I'm not going to post in the 2 cents Forum asking for volunteers.



Carolyn

[Al@NC]

So how good is Daniel Burson? I saw it mentioned over at IDig as being better than IS...

I mean would most people who have grown IS and DB recommend DB over IS?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Al@NC

So how good is Daniel Burson? I saw it mentioned over at IDig as being better than IS...

I mean would most people who have grown IS and DB recommend DB over IS?

I think that I've mentioned here at Tville that Travis sent me seeds to offer in the experimental section of my seed offer a few years ago and there b'c he wasn't sure it was stable and at that point was not named.

Everyone who got the seeds from my offer loved it and I know that b/c each Fall I put up a performance thread for folks to report back on whether what they got was true to the variety, how they liked it and many showed pictures.

It was after that that Travis named it Daniel Burson, the Daniels b/c the accidental cross was between the variety Daniels and Burson b/c the other parent was Indian Stripe.

I have grown IS for sure but have yet to grow Daniel Burson, but Travis has sent me plentyof seeds for it directly and it will be in my next seed offer, now, alas, a year late.

My impression from the feedback reports is that yes, they loved DB, but knowing who they were I knew that many of them had grown and loved IS as well.

But I don't know how many of them, if any, have grown both at the same time in the same season.

So that's something to think about as well, that is,direct comparisonof the two.

Carolyn

[Al@NC]

Thanks Carolyn, I guess I took for granted how young Daniel Burson is. I did a search online and came up with the link below. In the IDig link the comment was made that it was a better tomato than Daniels back in '13. I didn't know if others felt the same way.

I'm planning on growing IS [RL], [PL], and heart this summer along with Daniels but after reading a few comments here and there I began questioning if I was wasting my time and if I should just go ahead and get Daniel Burson (awaiting your seed offer) instead but I think I might add Daniel Burson to the growout and see for myself!

IDig link

Thanks,
Al

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by Al@NC

Thanks Carolyn, I guess I took for granted how young Daniel Burson is. I did a search online and came up with the link below. In the IDig link the comment was made that it was a better tomato than Daniels back in '13. I didn't know if others felt the same way.

I'm planning on growing IS [RL], [PL], and heart this summer along with Daniels but after reading a few comments here and there I began questioning if I was wasting my time and if I should just go ahead and get Daniel Burson (awaiting your seed offer) instead but I think I might add Daniel Burson to the growout and see for myself!



Thanks,
Al

Unless Travis has information that has changed his evaluation of Daniel Burson, one difference between it and the various Indian Stripes is that the Indian Stripes begin producing relatively early-midseason and keep on, while Daniel Burson (last I heard) produced a small amount midseason but doesn't get into serious production until later.

That's one of the reasons it really isn't a tomato one would choose for this short-season area, but its in the group of later tomatoes that I'm going to try to give some extra protection and see which, if any, of them will do well enough to warrant extra help to enable them to produce here.

I did grow Daniel Burson last year, and it was trying -- probably just trying for that smaller early production -- but it didn't even manage that, thanks to voles and mid August frost. It was trying to come back by the time real seasonal frost arrived, but couldn't quite make it -- so I'm hoping that perhaps this year. . .

[Al@NC]

Thanks JLJ, I just read that IDig link and later in that thread it was mentioned that DB didn't really put out till later in the season so maybe I won't grow it!