Harvest time for tomatoes then should ideally occur when..."

[Shrinkrap]

"As for getting nothing from the plant after color break, I'd like to see the scientific data on that."

Me too! I think this was the stuff I majored in, back in the day. And I am an exit or two from UC Davis. They study a lot of grapes and tomatoes. Maybe it is the abscission layer.

"Once the tomato has reached maturity an abscission layer forms between the calyx and the fruit, ultimately resulting in the fruit falling off of the pedicel."

http://www-
plb.ucdavis.edu/labs/rost/tomato/Reproductive/dev.html

"Development and regulation of pedicel abscission in tomato"

"Tomato has been studied as a model system for abscission, as tomato plants develop a distinct AZ at the midpoint of the pedicel and several tomato mutants, such as jointless, have pedicels that lack an AZ. This mini-review focuses on recent advances in research on the mechanisms regulating tomato pedicel abscission....Abstract
To shed unfertilized flowers or ripe fruits, many plant species develop a pedicel abscission zone (AZ), a specialized tissue that develops between the organ and the main body of the plan"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4462994/

"Before abscission, pedicel AZs attach the flowers firmly to the plant body, but when the AZ cells perceive an abscission-stimulating signal, the adhesion immediately starts to loosen. "

Maturity and Maturity Indices - Fruit & Nut Research and Information Center

"To most people mature and ripe mean the same thing when describing
fruit. For example, mature is defined in Webster's dictionary as: "mature
(fr.Lmaturus ripe):l: Based on slow, careful consideration;2a (I):
having completed natural growth and development: RIPE (2): having
undergone maturation, b: having attained a final or desired state; 3a: of
or relating to a condition of full development." In postharvest physiol-
ogy we consider mqture and ripe to be distinct terms for different
stages of fruit development (fig. 6.1). Mature is best defined by 2a (l)
above as "having completed natural growth and development"; for
fruits, it is defined in the U.S. Grade standards as "that stage which
will ensure proper completion of the ripening process." This latter def-
inition lacks precision in that it fails to define "proper completion of
the ripening process." Most postharvest technologists consider that the
definition should be "that stage at which a commodity has reached a
sufficient stage of development that after harvesting and postharvest
handling (including ripening, where required), its quality will be at
least the minimum acceptable to the ultimate consumer."
Horticultural maturity is the stage of development at which a plant
or plant part possesses the prerequisites for use by consumers for a
particular purpose"

[Father'sDaughter]

Some of us do our picking at first blush because once they develop any real color, they become beacons for whatever critter used to pick, bite and discard all my almost ripe tomatoes all over my back yard. I suspected squirrels but never caught one in the act. They now ripen safely in a shallow bowl in my living room.

[nhardy]

At the end of the season, I have always picked everything larger than 1". They ripen 90% of the time. That 10% are the tiny ones. I see no reason why not to pick them this way the entire season. Poor squirrel!

[KayJay]

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

Some of us do our picking at first blush because once they develop any real color, they become beacons for whatever critter used to pick, bite and discard all my almost ripe tomatoes all over my back yard. I suspected squirrels but never caught one in the act. They now ripen safely in a shallow bowl in my living room.

Ditto. If I let tomatoes ripen on the vine, I'd be picking them half-rotten off the ground ten feet away full of squirrel teeth marks. Mine go into a paper bag with a banana, if I'm in a hurry.

[gorbelly]

It's simply not true that there is no difference in taste as long as the tomato has reached mature green. And there's no "seal" between the tomato and the fruit, no "membrane" that forms, as people keep repeating. An abscission zone forms, but circulation can and does continue through it, liquids keep influxing into the truss even after tomatoes on it have put on a lot of color, and there is also backflow out of the truss once the fruit get more mature. There is definitely still activity there, but modern science still doesn't know exactly what is happening and how, as the vascular tissue is delicate and hard to observe accurately.

They've also done studies on people and their ability to taste a difference, and many people can absolutely taste the difference between tomatoes picked at table-ripe and those of the same variety picked earlier in various stages of coloring after mature green and then ripened to table-ripe off the vine.

That said, we rarely eat tomatoes that way, i.e., in large enough quantities to do extensive and careful side-by-side comparisons between tomatoes of the same variety picked at different stages of mature green. The taste is definitely "good enough" for most people when the tomato is picked and ripened off the vine after blush starts happening.

However, some people have more acute senses of taste and smell, and I have no doubt that these people are not fooling themselves when they say a tomato ripened to table-ripe on the vine tastes better to them. I believe them, as I am one of them.

And I will add that getting a tomato that is 90% or 95% fulfilling its flavor potential, such as a tomato picked when blushing strongly and ripened the rest of the way indoors, is much better than chasing 100% flavor potential and getting no tomato at all due to weather or critters. For me.

I just wish people would stop saying there's absolutely no difference and the people who say there is a difference are imagining it. Like anything else associated with tomatoes, it depends on stuff like variety, weather, conditions that they're being grown in including weather and pest pressures, the genetic abilities of the human eating them, and personal philosophical decisions about why we're growing the tomatoes and what we want out of the experience.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by gorbelly

It's simply not true that there is no difference in taste as long as the tomato has reached mature green. And there's no "seal" between the tomato and the fruit, no "membrane" that forms, as people keep repeating. An abscission zone forms, but circulation can and does continue through it, liquids keep influxing into the truss even after tomatoes on it have put on a lot of color, and there is also backflow out of the truss once the fruit get more mature. There is definitely still activity there, but modern science still doesn't know exactly what is happening and how, as the vascular tissue is delicate and hard to observe accurately.

They've also done studies on people and their ability to taste a difference, and many people can absolutely taste the difference between tomatoes picked at table-ripe and those of the same variety picked earlier in various stages of coloring after mature green and then ripened to table-ripe off the vine.

That said, we rarely eat tomatoes that way, i.e., in large enough quantities to do extensive and careful side-by-side comparisons between tomatoes of the same variety picked at different stages of mature green. The taste is definitely "good enough" for most people when the tomato is picked and ripened off the vine after blush starts happening.

However, some people have more acute senses of taste and smell, and I have no doubt that these people are not fooling themselves when they say a tomato ripened to table-ripe on the vine tastes better to them. I believe them, as I am one of them.

And I will add that getting a tomato that is 90% or 95% fulfilling its flavor potential, such as a tomato picked when blushing strongly and ripened the rest of the way indoors, is much better than chasing 100% flavor potential and getting no tomato at all due to weather or critters. For me.

I just wish people would stop saying there's absolutely no difference and the people who say there is a difference are imagining it. Like anything else associated with tomatoes, it depends on stuff like variety, weather, conditions that they're being grown in including weather and pest pressures, the genetic abilities of the human eating them, and personal philosophical decisions about why we're growing the tomatoes and what we want out of the experience.

I also have very complex taste buds, and the taste difference is very evident to me. I built my business around vine ripe tomatoes. I have always picked ripe fruit for my customers, sometimes picking several thousand pounds from flavorful varieties that require special handling techniques. Customers keep coming back, and I have no problem selling all I care to grow.

[Shrinkrap]

I am fairly "picky" when it comes to what I think is worth eating. That's how I got started growing those things I think really count. Could be cost, season, variety, or how long it takes to get from harvest to plate.

What leaps to mind for me are sugar snaps, shallots, new potatoes, apricots, figs, HOA scotch bonnets, Tiburon poblanos, Fresno chili's, Piquillo peppers.... maybe favas. And I sure do love growing a pretty tomato. This year striped tomatoes, but they cracked!

I can tell a April from July tomatoe, but not sure I can tell a picked day one from picked day three.


Day one, two and three.

[NarnianGarden]

As a part of my 'picking experiment', I ate the indoor-ripened tomato today (variety Dar Zavolzhaya Rozovyi), while its double is still hanging in the truss.
The taste: OK, just as any decent tomato should be, nothing special - there are decent tasting, locally-grown tomatoes available in the market sqaure or in the grocery store...

..Which makes me curious about the one hanging in the vine: it has been rainy in the last few days, and that may have watered down the taste. I'll know tomorrow, when it's time to have the vine-ripened one

[JLJ_]

This is a thread that might be helpful.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=30713

With all the posts and links considered, it essentially says that picking at the mature green stage is definitely better . . . for some situations . . . similarly picking only when vine ripe is *much* better for some . . . and there are many elements that go into deciding what approach to use.

I'm not enthused about the usefulness of tests comparing vine ripened to mature green ripened indoors -- not that it isn't something that could be interesting to try if convenient, but there are so many uncontrolled variables from variety to variety, from person to person, from season to season, from region to region . . . and soil and other conditions varying within the same garden, and differences in exactly what immature stage is selected, and differences in exactly how the immature fruit is ripened indoors, and differences in the conditions the outdoor fruit experiences while ripening there and more . . . that I am skeptical that the most carefully planned test comparing garden ripened to vine ripened will really give you the basis for a conclusion "this method is best" or even "this method is always best for me" or anything more than "on this day I liked tomato A better than tomato B".

But that thread and its links do give a lot of useful tips about various aspects of and experiences with different ripening methods.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

As a part of my 'picking experiment', I ate the indoor-ripened tomato today (variety Dar Zavolzhaya Rozovyi), while its double is still hanging in the truss.
The taste: OK, just as any decent tomato should be, nothing special - there are decent tasting, locally-grown tomatoes available in the market sqaure or in the grocery store...

..Which makes me curious about the one hanging in the vine: it has been rainy in the last few days, and that may have watered down the taste. I'll know tomorrow, when it's time to have the vine-ripened one

Tomato at that stage won't get any water through the stem, from the plant to water down the taste. But some water might get in through the stem joint.

But your experiment should tell you something. But If I were you I would've sliced and tasted both at the same time and possibly done with another person.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Tomato at that stage won't get any water through the stem, from the plant to water down the taste. But some water might get in through the stem joint.

But your experiment should tell you something. But If I were you I would've sliced and tasted both at the same time and possibly done with another person.

I don't believe that. I've split the skin on red ripe tomatoes many times in my tunnels when watering. I did it just last week.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Tomato at that stage won't get any water through the stem, from the plant to water down the taste. But some water might get in through the stem joint.

That defies everything we know about tomato pedicel/peduncle anatomy. Even if the stem joint were somehow open enough to routinely absorb water (I would like to know the mechanism/anatomy by which that works), how would it absorb enough to be responsible for something like the phenomenon of ripe fruit swelling and splitting after rain?

[imp]

There must be an exchange as we do know that ripe fruit will split after excessive watering.

Anyways, I agree with JLJ on "With all the posts and links considered, it essentially says that picking at the mature green stage is definitely better . . . for some situations . . . similarly picking only when vine ripe is *much* better for some . . . and there are many elements that go into deciding what approach to use.."


For me, unless there is a need to pick earlier than full ripe, I'll be waiting to pick- but that is simply my personal preference. Each person will do as they think is best for themselves.

[NarnianGarden]

I am certain my taste buds will remember the difference, if there is any.
In any case, this season has been so rainy and humid (albeit warm) that it may have a lot more to say about the taste than the time of picking...

Three years ago, in a relatively dry summer, my first heirloom tomato experience was with Black krim, and I don't recall much difference in regards to taste whether the fruit was picked earlier or a tad later. they all ripened nicely indoors in my very hot flat - and were a burst of delicious juicyness.
This year I probably won't have such heavenly fruits anyway, so I am not too concerned about the stage of ideal harvest. But I am hoping for a dry August and September..

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Hellmanns

I don't believe that. I've split the skin on red ripe tomatoes many times in my tunnels when watering. I did it just last week.

Splitting can take place even after a tomato is picked IF it has a thin skin.
The next time pic a ripe thin skin tomato before the rain and leave it outside in the rain and sun. I have observed this to happen to ripe SunGold tomatoes.