stupice not PL

[Al@NC]

I can send you Bloody Butcher (my seeds) which is considered really similar if you want, it's PL and I love it. I haven't grown Stupice so I don't know how similar they are or which one grows/tastes better here in the PNW though.

Tatiana says that BB is darker than S.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Bloody_Butcher



Al

[Gardeneer]

My Opinion is , if you like its earliness and taste, the keep growing it don't give away seeds as "Stupice'".

What is the bigh deal in the name ? We already know there are at least 3 strains of "Stupice'".
Call your "Tupiche', heh". Or "stupid thing !"

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by Ricky Shaw

Does a RL x PL give all regular leaf in F2, and then both RL and PL in F3, is that how that works?

Ricky the cross of RL X PL (The "F0" if you will) will give you F1s with all regular leafs.
From saved seeds of the F1(F2 now) you will have approximately 1/4 of the seedlings showing PL. When there is a RL gene present, either paired with another regular leaf gene , or paired with a potato leaf gene, the RL is dominant and the plant will show as regular leaf.
It takes the 2 recessive PL genes paired together to have a plant show as PL. So now go back to Carolyn's great demo above, and you can see that only ~ 1/4 of the time in that F2 do you get the 2 recessive genes together.

Unless you have that rare mutation happening, once a plant has recessive genes only, it can only show recessive traits, so the PL trait is fixed.

[Ricky Shaw]

Thank you Carolyn and Marsha, very helpful info.

[kchd..]

Thinking out loud here. What are the odds that someone sent in a packet of seeds that they saved and all the seeds came from a single tomato that was an accidental cross?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kchd..

Thinking out loud here. What are the odds that someone sent in a packet of seeds that they saved and all the seeds came from a single tomato that was an accidental cross?

Only the person who he traded with would possibly know that,but in general,the odds of getting wrong varieties from trades or swaps,even some seed offers, is much higher than getting seeds from good commercial seed sources,or even from fellow Tville folks in the WANTED seed subforum.

Saving seeds from just one fruit is NOT the best way to save seeds in any case IMO and that of others as well.

Carolyn

[kchd..]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Only the person who he traded with would possibly know that,but in general,the odds of getting wrong varieties from trades or swaps,even some seed offers, is much higher than getting seeds from good commercial seed sources,or even from fellow Tville folks in the WANTED seed subforum.



Saving seeds from just one fruit is NOT the best way to save seeds in any case IMO and that of others as well.



Carolyn

Right, I agree completely. So given that, what are the odds that all the plants would grow as RL? I would think the person who traded the seeds probably saved seeds from multiple fruit, and combined them all before making packs of 10 seeds each. So the odds of all the plants turning out to be RL from the lot of seeds would seem really low to me. So I'm wondering if a more likely explanation is a mislabeled pack of seeds?

[Gardeneer]

I have also a question for Carolyn :

IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE BOTH crossed AND non crossed SEEDS IN A SINGLE TOMATO ?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kchd..

Right, I agree completely. So given that, what are the odds that all the plants would grow as RL? I would think the person who traded the seeds probably saved seeds from multiple fruit, and combined them all before making packs of 10 seeds each. So the odds of all the plants turning out to be RL from the lot of seeds would seem really low to me. So I'm wondering if a more likely explanation is a mislabeled pack of seeds?

For both you and Gardeneer.

I can't answer your first question since it says I think,that is,there is no way of knowing if the person saved seeds from multiple fruits or not.

Can there be xed seeds and selfed seeds in the same fruit? Absolutely and it's been documented and I also have experienced it.

If all the ovules in the tomato ovary are not fertilized,then X pollination of the unfertilized ovules can occur. And fruits with up to I think 3 X pollinated seeds have been found.

I had saved seeds,lots of them,from Medovaya Kaplya and had distributed close to 1000 seeds before an off type appeared from one of my seed offers.

When still listing varieties in the SSE Yearbooks,of the many hundreds of varieties I listed over the years I know of less than 10 that had off types.

And that brings up another variable as well, and that is the fact that rates of X pollination differ in terms of the pollinators there,most are due to halictid bees,aka sweat bees and also depends on the weather. Also one never knows if blossoms were bagged or plants isolated geographically.

IMO just too many suppositions to try and deal with this Stupice question and similar ones.G,there aren't 4 species as you write,there are just 4 versions, based on what they were bred for,that is,2 for outdoor growing and 2 for glasshouse growing and you'll see that in the links below.

Vladimir explains this very well

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Stupice

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...cke_Polni_Rane

I could go back and fetch the other two,but won't.

Carolyn

[k3vin]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

When still listing varieties in the SSE Yearbooks,of the many hundreds of varieties I listed over the years I know of less than 10 that had off types.

Make that 11. I got Moravsky Div (AKAStupice) seeds from your seed offer in about 2010. I planted 5 seeds and got 4 PL and 1 RL seedlings. The RL produced very early oblong reddish/brownish 3 ounce very delicious tomatoes. I saved seeds and planted 50 of them the next year. Got 75% RL, 25% PL, so they were obviously crossed. All were early red globes, abut 5-10oz. From there I have planted between 6 to 12 plants every year and selected my favorite plant every year and saved seeds from only one tomato. I grew F6 plants this year. They are still segregating for leaf type, but one of these years soon I'll have RL fixed, which is the goal. Otherwise they are looking pretty stable now. They are about 2 or 3 days later than Stupice, but more flavorful and larger.

When they are completely stable, maybe F8 or F9, I'll send seeds out in the MMMM swap.

[AKmark]

AKSerry and I have crossed many delicious beefsteak varieties with Stupice and Bloody Butcher. We have found that the offspring usually surpassed Stupice and Bloody Butcher in flavor and are about as early with a larger fruit to boot. I have got beefsteaks over a pound at 102 days from seed.
Anyway, you don't have pure Stupice, but if the fruit you saved is good save the seed and grow out 15 or so plants and you will get a good selection for your next generation. As you select for each generation your line will have less variation among plants grown.

[JRinPA]

Well, I don't plan to grow out 15 plants and try to stabilize it. Rather, I'll just hope that this was not really stupice to begin with, but rather a stable RL "stupice facsimile" that was swapped in...and that the seed I saved from multiple visibly similar plants/multiple tomatoes per plant puts out the same plants next year. I certainly don't want 1 lb fruits, these little red golf balls are wonderful.

The most similar to this I have previously grown was 4th of July, and that had a much smaller output, stems were more lithe, and taste was mediocre at best.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by k3vin

Make that 11. I got Moravsky Div (AKAStupice) seeds from your seed offer in about 2010. I planted 5 seeds and got 4 PL and 1 RL seedlings. The RL produced very early oblong reddish/brownish 3 ounce very delicious tomatoes. I saved seeds and planted 50 of them the next year. Got 75% RL, 25% PL, so they were obviously crossed. All were early red globes, abut 5-10oz. From there I have planted between 6 to 12 plants every year and selected my favorite plant every year and saved seeds from only one tomato. I grew F6 plants this year. They are still segregating for leaf type, but one of these years soon I'll have RL fixed, which is the goal. Otherwise they are looking pretty stable now. They are about 2 or 3 days later than Stupice, but more flavorful and larger.

When they are completely stable, maybe F8 or F9, I'll send seeds out in the MMMM swap.

I was talking about listings in the SSE Yearbook,you are talking about a seed offer.

The problem with both is that if no one actually reports back what they got,and many don't,they just take the seeds and run,how am I or anyone else going to know about it.

Back in the 90's with the SSE Yearbook most folks would request seeds and then reoffer the same variety the next year,and that was the whole purpose behind preservation of varieties and was good.

I just checked the source of my Stupice,which would probably be the one I offered in a seed offer sometime, and my seeds were from a commercial source and the picture and descriptions in my book were/are, spot on for Stupice.

What you have now is no longer Stupice so you'll have to come up with a new name for it before you sent it to Gary,since keeping Stupice as part of the name would not be right,let alone be very confusing to anyone getting those seeds in terms of misrepresentation..

So there you go.

Carolyn

[k3vin]

The original seeds from you were Moravsky Div. And yes I did report back in the feedback that they we're crossed. Don't get me wrong. I like what I've got now better than either Moravsky Div or Stupice. They will have a new name, and I'll pass the history on when I do decide to send them out.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by k3vin

The original seeds from you were Moravsky Div. And yes I did report back in the feedback that the we're crossed. Don't get me wrong. I like what I've got now better than either Moravsky Div or Stupice. They will have a new name, and I'll pass the history on when I do decide to send them out.

Sounds good to me,and yes,I did offer Morasky Div in a seed offer and could go back and check how many reported it as a wrong variety, but I don't have time to do that and right now I don't even know who provided those seeds,as in which one of my seed producers.

It would probably be before 2005 since I fell in Dec of 2004,got put in this walker b/c I'd severed all 4 quads in my rightleg,and that was that. And I switched from GW to here in Jan of 2006 so perhaps it was a seed offer at GW which I did for man years.

When several folks report a problem with a variety I first ask what the problem was since some had mislabelled seedlings and on and on, but if many folks had a problem I deleted that variety from the next seed offer.

You might remember that when I put up my seed offer list I usually had varieties listed for 4 different years.

Best to get my facts straight so here's Tania's page for it

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Moravsky_Div

I got it from Andrey and first SSE listed it in 2008.I don't know when I first listed it here in a seed offer without checking,but IMO it doesn't really matter.


Carolyn