Activated Charcoal, Hardwood Charcoal?

[neoguy]

"Recent efforts stimulated by Terra Preta research included the investigation of bio-char (biomass-derived black carbon or charcoal) as a soil amendment to enhance nutrient availability and retention".

The underlined part of the quote is what originally got my attention. I don't believe the intent is to not provide any other amendments. I do believe, in the long run we'll have less need for the added amendments.

The small area I'm going to try was amended with rabbit manure and composted chicken manure about a month ago and coffee grounds last weekend. I'm going to add some pulverized hardwood charcoal and plant some garlic in about a month. At planting time, I'll probably spread some blood meal over the area and finally do a soil drench with molasses.

Who knows, maybe my garlic will have a sweet smokey flavor, have a high concentration of caffeine and round around like a rabbit with it's head cut off

[Worth1]

I’m going to use mesquite hard wood charcoal myself.
I think it would add a rather novel flavor to my okra and squash.

But of course, with some horse manure added who knows what might happen.

I think the first Europeans that came here were so astounded at the sacrifices and so called, “pagan rituals”, they had little time or desire to look any farther into the culture other than to find GOLD.
The Aztec floating gardens are amazing; they still do some of this, ‘in Mexico I think.

I have a book that has the original writings from the Spanish about the Texas Indians.
On thing in particular was how some guys were left behind and had to live with them.

They reported how the children would be potty trained in less than one year but would suckle their mother’s breasts until they were about ten years old.

Worth

[dcarch]

Unfortunately, my limited scientific knowledge only helps me to ask questions and not find answers:

• Carbon is one of the most inert elements. It does not normally react or interact well with other elements, therefore how is it going to help plants? That’s why carbon can stay in soil unchanged for thousands of years. I have not found any organism which can digest and turn pure carbon into carbon compounds.
• Activated charcoal has a great ability to lock-in other chemicals. If activated charcoals can lock-in nutrients, do plants have stronger pull to get the nutrients out? The pores in activated charcoal is so incredibly small, (atomic size) How can the relatively large roots get in to get the nutrients?
• Porous carbon or activated charcoal can never retain more water than its physical size. Can it retain more moisture than compost? Which can be 95% water.
• I don’t seem to be able to find any organism which can turn CO2 into pure carbon, charcoal or activated charcoal. Pure carbon is mined, produced by incomplete combustion or chemical extraction by strong sulfuric acid.
• Plants turn CO2 into carbon compounds thru photosynthesis. I am trying to understand how CO2 can penetrate soil, interact without photosynthesis, with charcoal in the soil and microorganisms and turn CO2 into biomass better than plants. I cannot understand the claim that it can solve global warming.
• Activated charcoal, while extremely absorptive, gets used up very quickly and becomes not activated. How can it benefit, assuming it can, plants for thousand of years?
• “----- and it has been shown to retain its fertility for thousands of years.”Assuming carbon is 100% nutrient, which it is not, it still would be used up after a few plantings. How can it last almost forever?
• “In university trials, terra preta has increased crop yields by up to 800%.” Comparing with?

dcarch

[Worth1]

From what I have read it is not activated charcoal but just plain old charcoal.
I have read that it holds nutrients for about 40 years.
I can’t believe that my self.

Maybe it helps loosen the clay type soils so plants can grow better in it.
Nobody knows for sure but from what I have seen it works.
What I am going to do is make a mixture of clay charcoal compost and manure and see what happens.
Then I will just add manure to the soil on some undecided time scale.

This will all go into some of the Incan terraces I am building along with irrigation canals.
I have a lot of water go to waste around the house from rain and I plan on conserving it.

I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel I just want an alternative to chemical fertilizers.
And of course think and do things in an odd ball way as some of you guys already know.

I also want my place to be a beautiful ¾ acre garden type park with all of the romance of an Incan village with flat stones walkways and the works.
Maybe even a small place in the back where I can sacrifice the worthless coyotes I have around here.
((((((((((((((((((((((To the tomato gods!)))))))))))))))

A place for my type of research, where there will be plenty of failure and some success.
I love failure it helps me learn.
I have a lot of time on my hands every month and am lucky to have it, ‘most don’t.

Worth

[dcarch]

Originally Posted by Worth1

------Nobody knows for sure but from what I have seen it works.
-------Worth

Actually, I didn't say it doesn't work. I just can't explain it using my limited knowledge.

But carbon is one of the most unusual elements with crazy properties. Many interesting forms of carbon have been discovered recently (nanotube carbon, etc.)

One interesting property: graphite is a good electrical conductor, may be this has somethiong to do with it.

dcarch

[dcarch]

Originally Posted by Worth1

------------I also want my place to be a beautiful ¾ acre garden type park with all of the romance of an Incan village with flat stones walkways and the works.

Originally Posted by Worth1

Maybe even a small place in the back where I can sacrifice the worthless coyotes I have around here.
((((((((((((((((((((((To the tomato gods!)))))))))))))))

Worth

dcarch

[dice]

I think what put me off Terra Preta was the
implied assumption (on the front page of
their web site) that the dark color in "black soil"
is carbon from some kind of organic charcoal.

You might be able to make black soil that way,
but for most dark, rich soils that is a fiction. There
are plenty of organic compounds produced in
decaying plant matter that look like that without
being particularly high in carbon.

(Instantly pegged my snake oil meter.)

[Gimme3]

While i enjoy the discussion heretofore...i think...yall still...aint researched...the marvelous ability...that charcoal posesses, in providing habitat for certain..very beneficial life forms.

Think about it...if it's (charcoals) benevolent as regards to PH,and does not alter any fertility balance, then why even ever consider it harmful ?

Theres somethin beneficial in charcoals...aside from...decomposition.

Do the research...draw ya own conclusions...)))

[tessa]

hey gimme...nice to see you 'round again.
i took onboard what you said about learning what activated charcoal actually is...and i got a bit lost...but i reckon that what i'm pulling from my slow combustion heater isn't actually 'activated'. would you agree?

and, on a slightly different note...
can i over-do it with spreading my woodheater ash around my garden?

cheers.

[dcarch]

In a spot in my garden, I am trying to grow morel mushrooms. In the past few years, I have been putting in there ash, half-burn logs, and charcoal from my BBQ. I have also mixed into the soil about one gallon of activated charcoal which I never used for my fish tank filter.

The plants grow very well in that spot, but nothing extraordinary. Plants in other spots where I have nice compost and fertilizer seem to do much better.

dcarch

[dice]

I did a little searching on ' "carbon-nitrogen ratio" AND charcoal',
without finding much. I get the impression from a report
of an Australian study that there is a problem with carbon
loss as well as nitrogen loss in some heavily farmed
soils, but crop rotation and leaving stubble in place
on top of the soil seems to mitigate carbon loss.
So far I don't see how adding charcoal would
help soil, any more than adding pea gravel would
help. (Wood ash is a whole different story, due
the potassium and pH effects.)

This one excellent document on composting did
say that charcoal is very hard for the microorganisms
that operate on organic compostable materials
to break down, practically inert in a compost
pile:

http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/mg/chapter2.pdf

[dcarch]

Originally Posted by dice

I did a little searching on ' "carbon-nitrogen ratio" AND charcoal', without finding much. I get the impression from a report
of an Australian study that there is a problem with carbon
loss as well as nitrogen loss in some heavily farmed
soils, ---------------

Are they talking about carbon or carbon compounds?

Big difference. Carbon compounds are a must to support micro-organism activities.

dcarch

[dice]

"Are they talking about carbon or carbon compounds?"

Didn't say.

The issue of "carbon loss" was one I had never heard
of before. I just inferred that it must be an issue known
in agricultural research from a comment in the description
of the study. It measured both carbon and nitrogen levels
in fields over several years with different crop rotations,
with stubble left in place or tilled in, with and without
fertilizer added, etc. I was only reading the summary,
not the complete research report, so I don't know what
molecules exactly they were testing to determine
"carbon level".

The document on composting has pretty good descriptions
of the activity of the different kinds of microorganisms
that operate on compostable materials and how varying
conditions in compost piles (and probably soil) affect
them. It doesn't have microscope photos, lab results, etc,
but it does have a lot more detailed explanations than
one usually finds in consumer level publications.

[Gimme3]

OK...if i could go back an link to them...i'd route yall to some available research/academic papers...but im not able to do that, due to computer switchover. But...deeper learnings have developed...that ...Recognize...the unique attraction that charcoals have, towards the thus-far identified beneficial soil microbial life-forms.

Bear in mind...identification and individual understanding of the myriad microbial species existent within soil is ...a science still in infancy, man knows very little, compared to the questions left to be studied. But of the few beneficial soil mychrobia that have been identified, it was found that...charcoals are a wonderful...Shelter...for them...a wonderful habitat of sorts.

Couple that current day awareness, with archaelogical discovery that proves...slash an burn was not responsible for the over-whelming presence of charcoals , still existent in soils of Middle America,South America...and...draw your own conclusions.

Tessa...wood ash is primarily calcium and potassium, in a highly leachable form. There is no harm in its generous use , an the charcoals that remain...are Icin on the Cake...))) One can overdo anything, but wood ashes , due to their leaching attribute, are kinda hard to be unreasonable in using. And thats also why...its desirable for an organic grower to acquire Potassium from mineral sources, like Langdbenite (Sul-po-mag)...or granite dust...as well as usin wood ash.Mineral sources of K are slower release, but longer available, and provide many other trace elements that wood ashes dont.

Activated charcoal...lol...simply refers to the fineness...a charcoal is ground into, because...thats when it truely demonstrates its absorptive and filtering qualities, due to it's surface area. Studying why...or how charcoal can be called..." activated"...is a fascinating, and enjoyable pursuit of learning.

Most of us eat sugar every day, filtered thru....charcoals derived from burnt bone...)))

[dice]

Without any particular enthusiasm for Terra Preta,
whose documents still give me that creepy "hype"
feeling reading them, I did come across something
relevant to this discussion purely by chance:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0601095052.htm

What is not described in the article above is what
the differences are between "agrichar" (which
I assume is another name for Terra Preta's touted
"biochar" magic ingredient) and charcoal, activated
or otherwise.

And what exactly, molecularly, is "agrichar"? Telling
us where it comes from is not much help. Does it
contain nitrogen? Other minerals? How much?
The carbon in it is apparently quite stable, but what
else is there? What transformations exactly happen
when it is incorporated into soil? What components
do bacteria, fungi, and earthworms break it down into?
*How* does it reduce supplementary nitrogen
requirements?

There are still too many unanswered questions to have
an informed opinion about it and whether any of the same
productivity gains would be seen amending garden soils with
ordinary charcoal, even it does have some promise, especially
for large agricultural operations like wheat fields that
may be carbon-limited after several years of successive
production.

"How does it function in soil", that is the unanswered question.
(Without that, it is merely a preliminary sales pitch.)