Is it technique, the mail, both or neither? - Page 2

OmahaJB · March 9, 2008

Interesting to read the responses to this question.
Speculation from a 'less' experienced gardener than most of you are:
Mail - In all my trades I've never seen any visible damage to tomato or pepper seeds during the mailing process. Outside of seeds possibly going through those fairly new machines that neutralize substances like Anthrax, it's hard to believe seeds would be harmed in the mail. Unless they were mailed during the hottest months of summer.

Seed storage and seed starting techniques would seem the most likely causes of germination variation from one grower to another. I read an interesting post by Carolyn just days ago that made me realize I was probably doing something very wrong by not propping up the plastic tops occassionally to my two little greenhouses to get air circulation. I've always removed the seedlings from the greenhouses to put them under the lights once they popped through the soil, but didn't realize I needed to prop the plastic lids of the greenhouses up once in awhile. Who knows how many seeds I've suffocated to death!

I have suspected for a few months that using my heated Jiffy greenhouse during warmer months, has probably cooked many of my seeds that were started during those times. Which explains why I've only had great success with seed-starting during winter months. For experienced gardeners those probably seem like obvious rules of thumb (propping up the lid once in awhile and not using bottom heat during warmer months), but for people just starting out they are very helpful tips. I expect to have much greater success in the future with seed-starting.

Another thought, and maybe this is totally off-the-wall stuff, but could it be possible that seed of some varieties are 'tougher' than other varieties, making them less likely to be affected by several temp changes during shipping, poor seed storage climate (i.e. too hot), bad seed starting techniques (i.e. mine in warmer months!), and other variants such as fermentation temps? How probable is this theory I wonder?

Jeff

BVGardener · March 10, 2008

Good topic and a very important one. Craig, I checked my germination rates for the varieties I started for the spring garden (not including dwarf varieties) and had fairly high germination rates. Overall, out of about 500 seed, I experianced germination rates in the 95% range. Some varieties were 100% but I did have a few that were no shows.

Jay

Worth1 · March 10, 2008

Heres the deal I have carried seeds with me to Alaska on the plane and exposed them to cold weather. (30 below)

The seeds I saved from last year have came up with no problem.100%
4 year old seeds did the same thing.

The seeds from Sue in Alaska (AKA akgardengirl) did fine too.
She mailed them to me.

What can I say

Worth

akgardengirl · March 10, 2008

I take seeds that I am sending folks to the po. They don't sit in the mailbox waiting for pickup. Maybe that's a clue right there. Happy to hear the seeds I sent you Worth germinated.
Sue
Sue

gardenmama · March 10, 2008

So far of the "received in the mail" varieties I've have no trends for germination.
One, mailed as a solo packet from the south has had no germination, while in the spot right next to it another mailed as a solo packet from the midwest had 100% germination. For seeds mailed from the west coast - one company 8 packets >80% germination the one packet not a thing has germinated by day 7. All are started in the same tray with the same heat/light conditions.

PaulF · March 10, 2008

This is an interesting one. This weekend I checked the germination rates for seeds going back five years for those sent through the mail from both individuals and from commercial seed sellers and compared them to saved seeds.

While all the seeds had good to excellent germination rates, there were a few that did not germinate at all, but the same seed did come up after a second planting. The worst percentage for me were my own saved seeds and those were all in the first couple of years of seed saving. Beginning the third year my germination rates were comparable to mailed commercial seed . After that, some problems came from SSE member traded seed with replant rates less than good.

Conclusion: ninety percent of my germination problems were caused by me either in my planting technique or seed saving technique. Commercial seed through the mail had consistently very good germination. A few problems with seeds from individuals were noticed, again with most of that being my own fault.

**Lee** · March 10, 2008

Germination results as of 11 days.

Total = 164/193 = 85%
Dwarves mailed from Craig = 5/16 = 31%
Dwarf (Dreamy) from Tomatopalooza = 10/10 = 100%
Dwarves saved myself = 8/8 & 8/8 = 16/16 = 100%

Others <50%
Stone (mailed) = 2/4 = 50%
Blk Heart (mailed) = 1/4 = 25%
Kosovo (mailed) = 2/4 = 50%
BrandywineXF5 (saved) = 1/4 = 25%

28/41 varieties = 100% germination
6/41 varieties <50% germination of which 5 went through the mail.

Just the facts....

Lee

Tomaddict · March 10, 2008

My theory is that it is heat, not cold conditions, encountered by seeds in the mail that alter the germination rates. Cold won't likely harm them unless they contain a fair amount of moisture and then they could get physically damaged if they freeze. Not likely for most seed samples.

When we get seeds by mail order we typically order them very early in the year, so they aren't likely exposed to heat when sitting around in warehouses or trucks. On the other hand we seed swappers etc. often make our exchanges at various times of the year. My suspicion is that they might occasionally be sitting in a truck on a warm sunny day and risk getting cooked.

An experiment involving shipping seeds to a few interested growers (and a high-temperature indicator with the shipments) with controlling sprouting conditions could determine if there is any truth to this imagined cause, or if it's hooey. It's just a theory at this point .... so I wouldn't bet my house on it. But I haven't seen a more plausible (in my opinion) theory yet!

tessa · March 11, 2008

okay...so i'm a bit disappointed by the germination rate of the 'perth pride' happy dwarf that i grew out and saved seeds from. the seeds from that were definitely mature ie: were fully ripe, and the seeds fermented.
the thing is...i still remember actually eating the tomatoes that the seeds came from. it is that fresh in my mind...and so...the seeds are also that fresh.
do you think a more prolonged dormancy period is required?
also...what do we think about the pressurized cargo hold environment the seeds experienced in airmail? does the length of pressurization also contribute? for instance...my seeds would have spent over 24 hours in a pressurized cargo hold. they would have pressurized and depressurized at least three times in transit. in nature...how many seeds would actually change pressurization to another altitude before germination?

these are just a few of my rationalizations/justifications for having such a lousy germination rate!!!!
LOL!

**nctomatoman** · March 11, 2008

Tessa, let's see how Cancolgirl does with them - as well as my second planting (which I will do soon!). I have about a dozen stubborn ones that will get another chance...

Sherry_AK · March 13, 2008

I'm getting worried about the Dwarf Project seeds received from Craig. Not yet ready to post actual results, but on Day 6, so far only 1 of 21 seeds has germinated. My own saved (and not mailed) Grumpy seeds started popping up like crazy on Day 3.

cancolgirl · March 22, 2008

Well I agree with the mail idea. I received a couple crushed seeds, which didn't looked crushed until after they were a bit wet. And as for Perth Pride F4 vial 2204, only one out of the 10 has surfaced since they were planted 10 days ago I don't have much hope for the rest. However, my Bundaberg Rumball 2 F4 all 10 germinated, but the Bundaberg Rumball 1 F5 looks like maybe 1 out of 3. So is it the mail? All I really know is I just hope they make it.

Ruth_10 · March 30, 2008

Well, I'm going to contradict myself (first time I've ever done that

) from my post of three weeks ago and say I think the mail has a lot to do with it, particularly anything mailed in an envelope that goes through the automated sorters. Envelopes of seeds sent from seed companies would be too large to go through those sorters, so I think they would not be subject to the same type of handling.

This year is the first year I've started a significant number of seeds that were trades. I am finding that of the seeds that are giving me poor germination this year, almost all of them were received through the mail (in particular the Dwarves from Craig, from vials he's getting 100% germination from, are looking poor as of this writing). Seeds that I've saved myself or that were from seed companies (i.e. not sent in business or personal sized envelopes) are germinating fine.

Unfortunately, damage in the mail could be very much a random event, so one would have to look at large numbers (large n) in order to see the effect.

**Lee** · March 30, 2008

I think you've hit the nail on the head Ruth.

The seeds I recvd from Craig came in a std sized envelope and were sent (in 1 day) about 20 miles across the county. (ie. No temp problems in transport.)

He got 100% germination, I got 30%!

On the flip side, seeds I sent him (in std sized envelope) gave him 50% germination, whereas I got 100%.

So, my conclusion from this entire dicussion is this:
Tomato seeds can be damaged in the mail when sent in envelopes that are
run through automatic sorting machines. To prevent this, larger envelopes or
sufficient (meaning bubble wrap) protection should be given the seeds.
The damage causes a significant (>70%) loss of germination.

Now, other than sending seeds using expensive bubble wrap mailers, what are
some good options we should try?
Anyone know a postmaster who could shed light on this subject?

Lee

cozy · March 30, 2008

I'm not sure of what type of testing is done since 9/11 but ... I do know that I have a lot of cds that showed up without the pics. Labeling them with "Do not x-ray" eliminated that problem.
Perhaps the seed companies get bypassed this scrutiny? Just random thoughts that perhaps random testing plays a role. Would x-rays affect germination?

March 9, 2008	#16
OmahaJB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Toledo, OH Posts: 1,821	Is it technique, the mail, both or neither? Interesting to read the responses to this question. Speculation from a 'less' experienced gardener than most of you are: Mail - In all my trades I've never seen any visible damage to tomato or pepper seeds during the mailing process. Outside of seeds possibly going through those fairly new machines that neutralize substances like Anthrax, it's hard to believe seeds would be harmed in the mail. Unless they were mailed during the hottest months of summer. Seed storage and seed starting techniques would seem the most likely causes of germination variation from one grower to another. I read an interesting post by Carolyn just days ago that made me realize I was probably doing something very wrong by not propping up the plastic tops occassionally to my two little greenhouses to get air circulation. I've always removed the seedlings from the greenhouses to put them under the lights once they popped through the soil, but didn't realize I needed to prop the plastic lids of the greenhouses up once in awhile. Who knows how many seeds I've suffocated to death! I have suspected for a few months that using my heated Jiffy greenhouse during warmer months, has probably cooked many of my seeds that were started during those times. Which explains why I've only had great success with seed-starting during winter months. For experienced gardeners those probably seem like obvious rules of thumb (propping up the lid once in awhile and not using bottom heat during warmer months), but for people just starting out they are very helpful tips. I expect to have much greater success in the future with seed-starting. Another thought, and maybe this is totally off-the-wall stuff, but could it be possible that seed of some varieties are 'tougher' than other varieties, making them less likely to be affected by several temp changes during shipping, poor seed storage climate (i.e. too hot), bad seed starting techniques (i.e. mine in warmer months!), and other variants such as fermentation temps? How probable is this theory I wonder? Jeff

March 10, 2008	#19
akgardengirl Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anchorage, AK zone 3/4 Posts: 1,410	Is it technique, the mail, both or neither? I take seeds that I am sending folks to the po. They don't sit in the mailbox waiting for pickup. Maybe that's a clue right there. Happy to hear the seeds I sent you Worth germinated. Sue Sue

March 10, 2008	#20
gardenmama Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: zone 7b/8a SE VA Posts: 268	So far of the "received in the mail" varieties I've have no trends for germination. One, mailed as a solo packet from the south has had no germination, while in the spot right next to it another mailed as a solo packet from the midwest had 100% germination. For seeds mailed from the west coast - one company 8 packets >80% germination the one packet not a thing has germinated by day 7. All are started in the same tray with the same heat/light conditions. __________________ -Martha SE VA

March 10, 2008	#21
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,296	This is an interesting one. This weekend I checked the germination rates for seeds going back five years for those sent through the mail from both individuals and from commercial seed sellers and compared them to saved seeds. While all the seeds had good to excellent germination rates, there were a few that did not germinate at all, but the same seed did come up after a second planting. The worst percentage for me were my own saved seeds and those were all in the first couple of years of seed saving. Beginning the third year my germination rates were comparable to mailed commercial seed . After that, some problems came from SSE member traded seed with replant rates less than good. Conclusion: ninety percent of my germination problems were caused by me either in my planting technique or seed saving technique. Commercial seed through the mail had consistently very good germination. A few problems with seeds from individuals were noticed, again with most of that being my own fault. __________________ there's two things money can't buy; true love and home grown tomatoes.

March 10, 2008	#22
Lee Tomatopalooza™ Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NC-Zone 7 Posts: 2,188	Germination results as of 11 days. Total = 164/193 = 85% Dwarves mailed from Craig = 5/16 = 31% Dwarf (Dreamy) from Tomatopalooza = 10/10 = 100% Dwarves saved myself = 8/8 & 8/8 = 16/16 = 100% Others <50% Stone (mailed) = 2/4 = 50% Blk Heart (mailed) = 1/4 = 25% Kosovo (mailed) = 2/4 = 50% BrandywineXF5 (saved) = 1/4 = 25% 28/41 varieties = 100% germination 6/41 varieties <50% germination of which 5 went through the mail. Just the facts.... Lee __________________ Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put one in a fruit salad. Cuostralee - The best thing on sliced bread.

March 10, 2008	#17
BVGardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 542	Good topic and a very important one. Craig, I checked my germination rates for the varieties I started for the spring garden (not including dwarf varieties) and had fairly high germination rates. Overall, out of about 500 seed, I experianced germination rates in the 95% range. Some varieties were 100% but I did have a few that were no shows. Jay

March 10, 2008	#18
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Heres the deal I have carried seeds with me to Alaska on the plane and exposed them to cold weather. (30 below) The seeds I saved from last year have came up with no problem.100% 4 year old seeds did the same thing. The seeds from Sue in Alaska (AKA akgardengirl) did fine too. She mailed them to me. What can I say Worth

March 10, 2008	#23
Tomaddict Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SW Michigan Posts: 73	My theory is that it is heat, not cold conditions, encountered by seeds in the mail that alter the germination rates. Cold won't likely harm them unless they contain a fair amount of moisture and then they could get physically damaged if they freeze. Not likely for most seed samples. When we get seeds by mail order we typically order them very early in the year, so they aren't likely exposed to heat when sitting around in warehouses or trucks. On the other hand we seed swappers etc. often make our exchanges at various times of the year. My suspicion is that they might occasionally be sitting in a truck on a warm sunny day and risk getting cooked. An experiment involving shipping seeds to a few interested growers (and a high-temperature indicator with the shipments) with controlling sprouting conditions could determine if there is any truth to this imagined cause, or if it's hooey. It's just a theory at this point .... so I wouldn't bet my house on it. But I haven't seen a more plausible (in my opinion) theory yet! __________________ Whatever you are, be a good one. -Abraham Lincoln

March 11, 2008	#24
tessa Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: perth, western australia Posts: 1,031	okay...so i'm a bit disappointed by the germination rate of the 'perth pride' happy dwarf that i grew out and saved seeds from. the seeds from that were definitely mature ie: were fully ripe, and the seeds fermented. the thing is...i still remember actually eating the tomatoes that the seeds came from. it is that fresh in my mind...and so...the seeds are also that fresh. do you think a more prolonged dormancy period is required? also...what do we think about the pressurized cargo hold environment the seeds experienced in airmail? does the length of pressurization also contribute? for instance...my seeds would have spent over 24 hours in a pressurized cargo hold. they would have pressurized and depressurized at least three times in transit. in nature...how many seeds would actually change pressurization to another altitude before germination? these are just a few of my rationalizations/justifications for having such a lousy germination rate!!!! LOL!

March 11, 2008	#25
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Tessa, let's see how Cancolgirl does with them - as well as my second planting (which I will do soon!). I have about a dozen stubborn ones that will get another chance... __________________ Craig

March 13, 2008	#26
Sherry_AK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Alaska Zone 3/4 Posts: 1,857	I'm getting worried about the Dwarf Project seeds received from Craig. Not yet ready to post actual results, but on Day 6, so far only 1 of 21 seeds has germinated. My own saved (and not mailed) Grumpy seeds started popping up like crazy on Day 3.

March 22, 2008	#27
cancolgirl Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Vancouver BC Posts: 68	Well I agree with the mail idea. I received a couple crushed seeds, which didn't looked crushed until after they were a bit wet. And as for Perth Pride F4 vial 2204, only one out of the 10 has surfaced since they were planted 10 days ago I don't have much hope for the rest. However, my Bundaberg Rumball 2 F4 all 10 germinated, but the Bundaberg Rumball 1 F5 looks like maybe 1 out of 3. So is it the mail? All I really know is I just hope they make it. __________________ "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." Unknown Author

March 30, 2008	#28
Ruth_10 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MO z6a near St. Louis Posts: 1,349	Well, I'm going to contradict myself (first time I've ever done that) from my post of three weeks ago and say I think the mail has a lot to do with it, particularly anything mailed in an envelope that goes through the automated sorters. Envelopes of seeds sent from seed companies would be too large to go through those sorters, so I think they would not be subject to the same type of handling. This year is the first year I've started a significant number of seeds that were trades. I am finding that of the seeds that are giving me poor germination this year, almost all of them were received through the mail (in particular the Dwarves from Craig, from vials he's getting 100% germination from, are looking poor as of this writing). Seeds that I've saved myself or that were from seed companies (i.e. not sent in business or personal sized envelopes) are germinating fine. Unfortunately, damage in the mail could be very much a random event, so one would have to look at large numbers (large n) in order to see the effect. __________________ --Ruth Some say the glass half-full. Others say the glass is half-empty. To an engineer, it’s twice as big as it needs to be.

March 30, 2008	#30
cozy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2007 Location: GA Posts: 46	I'm not sure of what type of testing is done since 9/11 but ... I do know that I have a lot of cds that showed up without the pics. Labeling them with "Do not x-ray" eliminated that problem. Perhaps the seed companies get bypassed this scrutiny? Just random thoughts that perhaps random testing plays a role. Would x-rays affect germination?