Bush Varieties

[TomatoDon]

mdvpc,

Interesting comment. Is that your personal standard of deciding on what's a dwarf, or is that an industry standard that you are referring to? And why precisely 3.4? Or was that a typo meaning 3.5?

Thanks! Elaboate more?

Don

[mdvpc]

ok-3.5 is still a dwarf in my definition. It was a typo.

Feldon-I agree its confusing.

3.5 is my definition.

Deer-is that belli naliv?

[nctomatoman]

Actually, Michael, my view is that all dwarfs that I've seen do have Rugose (dark green crinkly) foliage - that, plus the very thick central stem, distinguishes dwarfs. I don't use height at all...it is the distinctive plant habit.

I think because I've gotten a good look at so many dwarves over the past two years (will be near 200 after this year), the rugose foliage and stout central stem is on all of them.

When foliage is not rugose and the stem is normal diameter, I consider them to be Determinate varieties.

Just my view!

[dice]

I seem to recall Glenn Parker mentioning a Russian Red
(tree-type dwarf) plant that he kept alive in his greenhouse
for 3 years or something like that. (Pretty clearly not a
determinate.)

[TomatoDon]

I think the most accurate statement we've had so far is Morgans, "Very confusing IMO."

Don

[TZ-OH6]

Aren't we talking about a specific gene mutation here?

[nctomatoman]

It isn't a gene mutation so much as just a particular gene set. The Tree or Dwarf types showed up as a single variety in the 1860s. A very few types originated from this - Dwarf Champion, Golden Dwarf Champion, and Dwarf Stone - all in the late 1800s/early 1900s - as well as New Big Dwarf, which came from a cross between a dwarf and an indeterminate....and a few companies produced either renamed or slightly different selection of these. Jump all the way to the 1970s and you have Lime Green Salad, produced by Tom Wagner. A few others appeared to become available in Asia and Europe - they may or may not be related to those initial early releases.

Once you grow and carefully observe dwarfs vs determinates vs indeterminates in young seedling as well as mature, fruiting plant stages, it really isn't all that confusing...at least to me!

One interesting thing....dwarfs can be identified easily as very young seedlings, whereas determinates and indeterminates are indistinguishable until quite mature. If you look at Sophie's Choice or Taxi (both determinates), the young plants are actually taller than varieties such as Cherokee Purple as 4 week seedlings in 4 inch pots. The determinate plum tomatoes, such as Roma, look a bit different, but not all that much. However, New Big Dwarf, Lime Green Salad, etc look very, very different in both foliage type and stem width - as well as height.

Red Robin is a special type of dwarf that tops out at 6-12 inches in heigth.

[TZ-OH6]

I assumed your dwarf project growouts were showing single gene loci mendelian characteristics in the F2 (3:1 expression). Are the real numbers too far off for this assumption?

[nctomatoman]

Yes, we are seeing that - so it is easy to find the dwarfs in the F2 as long as you plant enough seeds. Once you get dwarf, they come through 100% in following generations. Fruit shape and color and leaf shape are another matter and make it fun!

[Sherry_AK]

For comparison, here are pix of some of the dwarf varieties being discussed.

In the group shot, back row l to r, Chibikko, Lime Green Salad, Demidov, New Big Dwarf.

Front row, l to r, Grumpy F3, Barossa Beauty (Sneezy), Red Robin, Pinnochio.

All were started from seed on 3/7.

[salix]

Hope this posting is not too far off topic - I am in love! (with dwarf tomatoes)

This is the first year I have grown dwarf tomato plants (5 types) and just love 'em. So far they are only 5 inches tall, but so sturdy and robust in their short stature - DH thinks they're cute too; but probably because they mirror my own physiognomy...

[TomatoDon]

What all varieties did you grow?

D

[mdvpc]

Craig-I guess it depends on your definition.

Is Scoresby Dwarf a dwarf? Its rl. Quarter century is rugose and stout for me-but not determinate and definitely taller than 3.5 feet. If the definition is rugose and stout, then Scoresby Dwarf would not be a dwarf. I dont have a list of what I consider dwarves that are not rugose, but there are some. Tatura is another dwarf that is rl. Silvery Fir Tree is neither rugose nor rl, but its shorter than 3.5 feet (dont remember if its determinate or not).

Unless I get convinced otherwise, a dwarf for me is shorter than 3.5 feet. Some are rugose (actually, I agree that an awful lot of them are rugose), but I am not ready to call Scoresby Dwarf a determinate non-dwarf that is shorter than 3.5 feet tall.

[nctomatoman]

Hey Michael - from what I've read, Scoresby Dwarf is not a dwarf, but a compact determinate. Victorian Dwarf isn't a dwarf either...it is also a compact determinate. The definition that I use as a yardstick isn't mine - it is from the old literature, as the rugose foliage, and stout central stem is what defined dwarfs. I think that what's happened is that, like many things with tomatoes, terms get misapplied over the years. Quarter Century is a dwarf variety, and was released as and descrived as such by Burpee. The reason that certain types of dwarfs can get quite tall is that some of them are in essence a form in indeterminate, in that they don't top out - they grow slowly vertically. IN long growing seasons, they certainly can get up to 4 feet - but in those seasons, true indeterminates will be at 10-12 feet! It is always easier to demonstrate than describe...we can look through all sorts of dwarfs, determintes, etc. this summer at Tpalooza!

[mdvpc]

Craig-great info and thoughts from you-got to ponder this during the summer. I am never afraid to change my opinion on things. I will get back to this thread down the line.