Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

ok, the other available fields of actions will be 2. watering and 3. plant tending, but since you are very close to start there we'll deal with it a bit later, now i would like to explain what exactly can be done about the soil.

let's start with basic elements explanation:

* copper. a leading fungicide and bactericide in horticulture, will eradicate most of the reachable villains while it's ions are still active. afterwards it will feed the plants ( btw, after borron copper and iron are the most restrictive feeding elements ). it's specifical activity/non- activity status is to complex to explain, but we generally want it stabile and active for as long as possible, and therefore we want it connected to mancozeb.

* mancozeb. yes, i know the critical issue about it. once i'll see to explain that it's harmless if you are careful when you use it- doesn't accumulate in the fruits, doesn't accumulate in people. the stuff which is the actual danger ( degradate ) turns to CO2 quite quickly.
anyway, it's manganese, zinc, tied to sulfur. again, it will eradicate ( most of fungus and bacteria ) while stabily active, feed the plants afterwards. very significant sinergetic effects in a combination with copper.

* sulfur. this is the key.
quite long time ago it was noticed in some field tests ( US first i believe, but we did it too ) that plants fertilized with ammonium sulfate have shown decreased V. and F. accidence comparing to the control. it wasn't an expected result, since ammonium turns the soil quite acidic and it would be logical to expect increased infection rates. pointed out that there is something to sulfur... tests still being conducted world wide.
then again, some British chaps have recently decided to check the practical meaning of ''V. and F. resistance gene''. in other words, they analised what exactly those plants do to be resistant to such type of pathogens. the result was a bit of a surprise: those plants somehow manage to have significantly higher amounts of sulfur, in xylem and root area especially.
btw, the first ''anty- soil- born- xylem- invading pathogens'' procedure in our ag was amending the soil with elemental sulfur. it hasn't provided control but it made a significant decreasement with infection occurance.

* calcium. not a direct fungicide, but it will have significant effects trough Ph control, ammonium control, sinergetic effects ( logistics ) to most of the other elements ( our ''direct soldiers'' ).

to be continued.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan, nice to read your posts. The temp here has been hot (almost 100F today). Here you can find the forecast for the next five days (low to mid 90's with slight chance of rain early next week):
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...st?query=95661

I just finished lifting 33 very heavy solar panels, and all seems well. So I'll be able to focus back on the plants this next week. I'll aim to get the mixture started tonight or tomorrow morning. You know the products that I'm using. Do you suggest I simply follow the label directions for a full concentration dose for 10l (per 3 plants) and then mix both together?

Another concern... if we're aiming for 6.8-7.2 pH in the experimental area, I may need to add some lime (or some other alkaline pH-raising substance) to try and up the pH to our target. I think this needs to be done before planting by at the least a week. What do you think? I'll try and take the pH measurements very soon.

BTW, did you read through my thread on the soil structure/make-up? Any questions about what I documented there?

Thanks,
Naysen

hi, good for you. i've promised myself i'll have solar installed long time ago, it just could be that you make me do it after all.

just do the following:
copper at 1% ( 100ml/g per 10l of water ). mix this one first to the full amount of water you estimate you'll spend.
mancozeb at 0.25% ( 25g per 10l of water ). mix this afterwards. close the barrel ( or whatever that is that you'll use for the mixture ).

no, the procedure is designed that way that it will keep the soil in the preffered Ph range. it is only the amounts of some amendments that will depend on the current soil solution ( soil + water you use ) Ph.
btw, lime is a bit of a ''total'' answer to any low Ph situation, but things are not that simple, or should i say- much more complicated due to co- relations with other elements and processes. anyway, stuff is a bit overrated if you ask me.

yes, i checked your thread and i'm once again sincerely amazed by the energy you invest in your work.
to be honest, there are some terms i am not familiar with there, but i believe i got it. now i know where the BER comes from. i'll explain it with further procedure explanations, it's easy.

next one soon if i don't fall asleep.

[Paradajz]

ok, a list of other ''items'' we were talking about with explanations:

* Bordeux mixture

An accident that saved the world from famine ( pitty it happened after the Irish famine ). In 19th century a guy from Bordeux, France, had a vineyard and had people steal his grapes all the time. To scare them off he got an interesting idea to ''paint'' the grapes so they wouldn't pick them. So he took some ''blue stone'' ( copper sulfate ) and mixed it with ''live'' lime ( because the blue stuff wouldn't stay on the leafs by itself ). When he sprayed with that the plants got all blue and there was no more stealing.
Than again, it was the time when Late Blight was terrorising the world, causing unbelievable damages on potato and grape crops. But as a gift from Heaven, another guy from Bordeux, France, who was passing by the first guy's vineyards each day, noticed a funny thing: the complete Bordeux region grape crops were devastated by LB, but this guy hadn't had a single infected plant... The most used fungicide in the history of the world was invented.
Couldn't hold myself from telling this story. But the point is that it's a copper form tied to sulfur ( sulfate ), and that's what you want. The idea is to do 2- 3 protective sprays ( foliage, but soaking the soil too ) in the process of regular plants protection ( 10- 14 days intervals, depends on weather ). This way the activity of copper ions in the soil will be prolonged, and the basic goal of keeping stabile amounts of sulfur in the soil will be helped too.
I asked about it since i noticed you couldn't find the copper- oxysulfate form i originally recommended ( which is a far more modern and active substance ), and on the other hand, in our part of the world at least, Bordeux mixture is the easiest available and also the cheepest form of a copper fungicide.

...

[Paradajz]

...

* Wood ash ( hardwood specifically )

It's some minerals ( Mg, Fe, Zn, depends on the plants, no S but maybe in traces there- fire turns sulfur into a funny smelling gas ), but above all it's potassium bicarbonate.
It'll have 3 effects:
- Ph control, moderate increasement
- Anty fungal, you should know- sprayed quite some amounts of it if i recall well
- A perfect tomato fertilizer and soil structure amendment, bothering some soil insects along the way too

generally, agged manure ( or compost ) combined with hardwood ashes is an extraordinary fert meal to a tomato plant, hard to find any better. this one would resolve any BER issues for you by itself.
as for your question about replacing it ( Su Po Mag if i understood correctly ), please note:
when you had some accidence of BER, any magnesium soil amendments are the biggest NO- NO of all.

to reconnect to the BER issue finally:
one of the most spread teaching mistakes in ag world is the explanation of this issue, it's almost always over- simplified.
so, it goes something like this: it's a calcium deficiency, spray foliage or drench or amend some calcium to the soil and it'll be ok. in better explanations you may even find some antagonists of calcium listed, and that's about it.

uh, it's so much more complicated than that. generally, it's true: calcium is a general problem in acidic soils, overwatered soils too. to much of nitrogen, phosphorus or magnesium can also do harm.
but, what you need to know about that:
- calcium may generally be deficient only in poorly made soilless potting mixes, or in overwatered regions ( proximity of rivers, floodings, deluges, etc. ). this is actually a very rare occurance.
- the fundamental problem with calcium uptake and effects is it's highly specific way of action: it's an extremely slow element ( the speed of it's translocation or general moving through a plant is so low that many authors clasiffy it as a non- movable element ), and it's higly related to borron and phosphorus presence ( cannot do anything without adequate company from those two ) ; on the other hand, nitrogen isn't a direct antagonist to calcium, but it moves and acts so fast in a plant that, if nitro to high, the plant will grow so fast that calcium simply won't be able to catch the ''rhytm'' and BER will knock on the door; also, magnesium is highly more mobile than calcium, and a direct antagonist for the uptake, so if the balance between the two starts leaning towards magnesium side BER will be visiting again; finally, a tomato plant is additionally specific with calcium effects: it will be providing fruits with calcium only to a certain stage ( let's gennerally say untill the fruits get to be somewhere in an inch diameter ), and there will be no more providing afterwards, which means that the fruit will only be redistributing the existing calcium and getting no more in the later development- that's why you cannot do anyting about BER once you see it, actually any actions are only possible in earliest fruit development stages.

so, in practice, BER mostly occurs for two reasons:
- nitro overdosing
- magnesium disbalance

so, no magnesium amendments there. no more sands, no dolomite ( calcium- magnesium carbonate ) especially.
once you noticed BER, the first reaction should be avoiding nitro, kelp ( fast growth stimulators ) and magnesium, and naturally, adding some foliar calcium and borron if possible. basically, magnesium and calcium have a certain range of balance, and once it gets disturbed it's only natural to react and be worried with calcium, since magnesium is so mobile that any troubles with that can be resolved quite easy.

finally, woodashes is absolutely the amendment of choice for you there if anyhow possible, if not it can be replaced by gypsum ( but not to a full extent ), i'll explain in the next post.

[Paradajz]

* Gypsum

calcium sulfate dyhidrate, once again, calcium and sulfur ( sulfate form ) back into the game. a very specific mineral, makes soil better drained but still preserves water, addes significant amounts of calcium and sulfur ( in the most plant- convenient form of sulfate ), and controls the Ph just perfectly, in a very specific way: it is Ph neutral and, very simply said, it will take both acidic and alkaline soils towards most convenient Ph range.
so, many roles it can play in your fight:
- it will significantly help bring the Ph where you want it ( as i said, regulating soil Ph is a constant process, the procedure is specific in a way that you don't simply use ''lime tactics'' as a ''one- time plus- minus'', possibly short- term functioning action which btw doesn't always work deep enough in the soil, but you rather use plenty of carefully chosen ''soft moves'' of bringing the Ph where you want it, and those moves are predicted in a way of not risking the Ph going to high and having a constant, long lasting effect )
- it will help getting the soil sulfur level where you so much need it

in addition to these particular actions aimed as means of fignting the pathogens off, i must again stress the role of calcium in increasing the quality of nutrient uptake for the plants:
as i said earlier, it's a ''logistic'' element. this means that some secondaries and almost all the micro nutrients ( Mg, Fe, Zn, Cu, Mn, etc., which will actually be fundamentally influencing strenght, health and yields of your plants ) will be significantly helped in it's work by calcium:
in simple words, those elements need it so it could be delivered to a plant in the most convenient way, while on the other hand calcium will help prevent excesses of any kind, and further more it will help bringing magnesium- calcium ratio to the optimal level.
in our case, connected to the procedure, preserving sufficient quantities of calcium in the soil is just as important as doing the same with sulfur, because it will help your ''main tools'' ( copper, manganeze, zinc, also beneficials which highly depend of available amounts of calcium in their work, etc. ) deliver the ultimate effect, while it will also help it transferring from a weapon against pathogens to extremely significant nutrients to your plants, doubling it's effects that way.

that's the general explanation of it's high relevance in the procedure, but i once again recommend woodashes in this particular case. the reson is fairly simple:
gypsum has sulfur ( in a very significant percentage ) and calcium, while ashes will deliver potassium and calcium ( in a specific- bicarbonate form ).
overally, Gypsum would be more convenient in the pathogen fight, the only thing it misses is potassium which you should be able to find in any organic- pellete form and add to gypsum as soil amendment in the planting phase ( which you should absolutely do if you still cannot find any ashes and decide to go with gypsum, while you need to take care that the potassium fert you apply with gypsum has potassium in the sulphate form ). btw, any potassium ferts used at soils which are known to host those pathogens, related or un- related to our procedure, should absolutely be in a sulfate form.

but, in your specific soil, which consists of high level organic materia ( ''light structure'' materia ), and relies on sand and some perlite for water keeping, woodashes make a better concept for you.
it's because it will add some composite structure to your soil and help with stabilising the water amounts within ( which is extremely important, since inconsistent water amounts typical for light, high organic soils, however ''small occurance'' and insignificant it might appear, will result with the high increase of plant's root activity and consequently significantly higher amounts of secretions roots will produce, which for it's part will directly stimulate the pathogens activity and disease rates ).
therefore i lean towards ashes there, in a more ''clayish'' type of soil i'd most probably recommend gypsum, although ashes are irreplaceble as a general fert in tomato growing. the sulfur which it misses needs to be corrected by an application of elemental sulfur, which will also have plenty effects there, some very specific additional ones which i still haven't explained but i shall, once we get to a summary here.

[Paradajz]

so,

* Elemental sulfur

it's basic effect on the pathogens explained earlier, but there are some additional effects it provides:
it's very specific with the activity ( very similar to copper ). simply said, it's only active when it comes to the smallest ( finest ) particles. that's why i aksed you if fert forms of elemental sulfur are available to you, because it should already be managed to the preffered size.
anyway, this issue will make sulfur do one very very convenient thing: it will stay in the soil for a very long period and consequently provide very long lasting, constant activity. and that's exactly what we want.
anyway, you should try to find it in the most adequate ( ''dusty size'' ) form you can, if you go with ashes as soil amendment it needs to be added too. btw, some clay in the soil would significantly help the activity of sulfur for certain reasons ( we dont want to explain that deep here ), but anyway, the beneficials and water should do just fine.
it will also significantly help fighting off quite a number of soil insects/parasites.

ooooh, finally it's time to make a short and precise summary here, i'll do it in the next post

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, still soaking up the materials.

In the interest of being prepared for planting, let me give you a run down on what I can order online here:

1. Gypsum Powder: how do any of these look for size? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...+powder&_frs=1
2. copper sulfate for Bordeaux Mixture: how about any of these? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...lfate&_sacat=0
3. hydrated lime for Bordeaux Mixture: how about this? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...+lime&_sacat=0
4. Potassium Bicarbonate - to add with Gypsum powder. Will these do? (BTW, I used GreenCure product before for this.) http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...um+bicarbonate
5. Elemental Sulfur - can I use the xyz that I already purchased (and did not use) for PM control? Here's a link: http://strawberry.ifas.ufl.edu/plant...mulus%20DF.pdf Otherwise, I have options such as these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...emental+sulfur OR http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...sulfure&_rdc=1
6. Wood Ash - I've not seen any ads for sale of wood-ash (it is the middle of Summer here), and since I no longer have a fireplace, this may be difficult to procure. I may be able to use an outdoor wood burner to create my own ashes, depending on the amount required.

Speaking of which, how much of the above will be required for a given application? What are the concentrations you prefer for the Bordeaux Mixture? I've seen 4/4/50 mentioned on the web, which is 4lb of each component mixed with 50-gal of water.


Some of these items will take a week or more to arrive, so if we want to amend my soil prior to planting out, I'd better get them ordered today. Please take a quick look and let me know the general amounts required and any preferences for the variations listed.


BTW, I wonder if this process were applied as an ongoing routine in the garden, if one doesn't run the risk of building up too much sulfur in the soil, or too much calcium or some other element. When does one let up on the injections?

Other items I have that might be of use:
- Humic Acid powder
- Alfalfa pellets
- Azomite
- Crab shells


Thanks!
Naysen

[aclum]

Hi Naysen,

I wonder if any of the "real" barbeque joints in your area might have wood ashes available? I believe that hardwood is generally used (although I'm not 100% positive on that) and is burned in a "smoker box" separate from the meat so it's not contaminated by the meat juices, spices, etc. Or maybe you could track down a home barbeque afficianado (sp?) with an accumulation of wood ash they'd like to get rid of.

Just an idea....

Anne

[z_willus_d]

Hi Anne, "Real" BBQ in central CA... I don't think so. But seriously, I think those of us doing it at home tend to not really burn the wood chip per se but kind of smoke them wet. You're right about the wood, they use hardwoods like cherry.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Ivan, still soaking up the materials.

In the interest of being prepared for planting, let me give you a run down on what I can order online here:

1. Gypsum Powder: how do any of these look for size? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...+powder&_frs=1
2. copper sulfate for Bordeaux Mixture: how about any of these? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...lfate&_sacat=0
3. hydrated lime for Bordeaux Mixture: how about this? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...+lime&_sacat=0
4. Potassium Bicarbonate - to add with Gypsum powder. Will these do? (BTW, I used GreenCure product before for this.) http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...um+bicarbonate
5. Elemental Sulfur - can I use the xyz that I already purchased (and did not use) for PM control? Here's a link: http://strawberry.ifas.ufl.edu/plant...mulus%20DF.pdf Otherwise, I have options such as these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...emental+sulfur OR http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...sulfure&_rdc=1
6. Wood Ash - I've not seen any ads for sale of wood-ash (it is the middle of Summer here), and since I no longer have a fireplace, this may be difficult to procure. I may be able to use an outdoor wood burner to create my own ashes, depending on the amount required.

Speaking of which, how much of the above will be required for a given application? What are the concentrations you prefer for the Bordeaux Mixture? I've seen 4/4/50 mentioned on the web, which is 4lb of each component mixed with 50-gal of water.


Some of these items will take a week or more to arrive, so if we want to amend my soil prior to planting out, I'd better get them ordered today. Please take a quick look and let me know the general amounts required and any preferences for the variations listed.


BTW, I wonder if this process were applied as an ongoing routine in the garden, if one doesn't run the risk of building up too much sulfur in the soil, or too much calcium or some other element. When does one let up on the injections?

Other items I have that might be of use:
- Humic Acid powder
- Alfalfa pellets
- Azomite
- Crab shells


Thanks!
Naysen

hi,

just shortly now, we'll go to details tomorrow:

you actually almost got everything you need for the starters ( mixture and amendments ). the only question is whether it's going to be woodashes + elemental sulfur or gypsum + potassium fert as the amendment along with wormcastings.
if you don't find ashes after all, go with gypsum. if you can't find any appropriate potassium fert to add to gypsum at the moment, go simply with gypsum only, potass. fert can be added later without significant changes related to the experiment cause ( fighting off diseases ). effects of such a change would be in the other area- plants would like it better if potass. was in the soil already.

Bordeux mixture will come to the scene quite later, i'll explain in the summary.
quantities that you'll need there are actually quite small, i'll address it separatelly.
shall check about your other questions and provide some answers tomorrow.

talk soon.

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, you asked about my Beaufort grafts several posts back; there susceptibility to the presumed F. V. pathogens relative to the majority Maxifort vines. I'm sorry to report that the few Beaufort grafted vines I have in the garden fared no better than the rest so far as I can tell.

Images 781-785 show a Stump of the World heirloom grafted to Beaufort rootstock. This plant did OK for a while before going down like the rest when it set fruit.

Images 786-790 are of a costoluto genovese grafted again to Beaufort, in a different bed. This vine did fine but also went down like the rest. It's still hanging in there a bit, owing I think to the sturdy nature of the CG scion.

You can get a feel for the issues from the close-ups of the leaves.

--naysen

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, this evening I tilled through the area I propose to conduct the experiment we've been "discussing" here. It's around a 10' x 2-3' strip in my newest bed. The vines in this area were cut down a couple weeks back, and I removed the rest of their stumps today.

You can see there was a lot of debris left even after my cleaning through in images 796-801. That shows the swath before "tilling." I tilled down with a shovel for a couple hours, down about 18" deep. I hit a great deal of roots, and I did my best to weed and sift them out. I probably got about 25% of what's there.

Images 802-805 show what things looked like after I dug through the mess and doused with a quick shower from my garden hose.

I'll post my pH measurements next.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Ok- here are the pH measurements I took this evening after tilling through the experiment bed. I was a bit surprised to find the pH as high as it was showing, given that I was measuring in the mid 6's at the start of the season just after filling up the bed. But on contemplation, this makes sense since I had added Espoma Garden Lime to each wheelbarrow that went in the bed. I know that stuff takes some time to take effect. So it looks like I'm in the low 7's range for pH here.

I dug down a foot and too a couple measurements (815/816), and those came in a bit lower in pH than the rest. I'm not sure if that's a rule or just chance. It probably has something to do with the density of the materials involved.

You can see my hose water measured in at a pH of 8.75, which seems a bit high. I haven't calibrated the meter in a while, so it's possible it could be off some. Last pic shows the patio peppers and some solar panels chilling above. That's about half of them.

--naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Ok- here are the pH measurements I took this evening after tilling through the experiment bed. I was a bit surprised to find the pH as high as it was showing, given that I was measuring in the mid 6's at the start of the season just after filling up the bed. But on contemplation, this makes sense since I had added Espoma Garden Lime to each wheelbarrow that went in the bed. I know that stuff takes some time to take effect. So it looks like I'm in the low 7's range for pH here.

I dug down a foot and too a couple measurements (815/816), and those came in a bit lower in pH than the rest. I'm not sure if that's a rule or just chance. It probably has something to do with the density of the materials involved.

You can see my hose water measured in at a pH of 8.75, which seems a bit high. I haven't calibrated the meter in a while, so it's possible it could be off some. Last pic shows the patio peppers and some solar panels chilling above. That's about half of them.

--naysen

hi, very busy at the moment, shall be able to provide some further details later today, but pls inform if you can get some peat moss ( 5.5 - 6.0 Ph medium range if possible )?

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, peat moss was one of the primary components of my bed soil make-up. I should be able to locate more, if needed. When I measured it's pH, it came in around 5.5.

Thanks,
Naysen