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Old September 18, 2013   #376
Heritage
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Ivan.

Nettle is one of the weeds I am constantly battling and trying to eradicate from my flower beds, it is a very common weed here and difficult to control. Weeding even small nettle plants makes it necessary to wear leather gloves and long-sleeve shirts. It isn't something I would imagine for mulch - it seems the risk of seeding new plants seems too great. I assume, to use, you harvest the small plants before they set seeds? I understand that dried nettles are more nutritious than alfalfa, so I would be very interested in the method you use to work with Nettles and how you keep it from spreading. (Ha!, Sorry again Naysen, for taking this thread off track)

Thanks,
Steve
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Old September 18, 2013   #377
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Steve, you took the questions out of my typing fingers. I'm right there with you in curiosity for how one adds nettle into their cultivation practices. I've known some "hippy" friends that like to make tea with it. My wife likes to make tea with the broccoli water (leachate from boiling). I never much cared for it, but I think it's supposed to be super healthy. Same for that nettle tea.
-n
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Old September 18, 2013   #378
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Hi Ivan, Stinging Nettle, yes we have that here. I see it mostly in areas that are less hot/dry and more moist, maybe up in the pacific northwest. In any event, seeds for that "weed" are available. I'm not sure I want to be working with something that aims to puncture me with every touch, but it might be worth adding to the rotation.

Do you guys use it as a cover-crop during the off-season (doesn't it die back during the winter?), or is it co-planted with the main crops as a kind of buffer? I'm not sure how it would be integrated into the "cooking" phase. Actually for that matter I'm not certain how you use would use broccoli instead of hay there. I'm visualizing a bunch of dead broccoli leaves covering the ground in place of several inches of hay over the black plastic wrap. Or do you grow the broccoli as a cover crop live over the "cooking" manure and wrap? I'm guessing the former. Maybe you till it in with the manure and just leave the black wrap there.

.........

Naysen
haha, no please, don't make nettle a crop. Steve is very much right about it- it's a weed, and you would have quite some troubles ( and pains ) with getting ridd of it. i'll explain how it can be used in the following post.

as for brassicas, no, it's not intended to be a mulch.
straw mulch has 2 basic functions there: makes a ''thermo'' block so the manure would be more comfortable and not distressed with outside low temps, and in addition, when you incorporate it into the soil later ( Spring ) it does the same thing as brassicas- chases various buggers off. it's only that brassicas make the second task in a much much more efficient way.
therefore, if brassicas comfortably and conveniently available to you, simply do not administer the straw mulch with cooking ( if i could judge the temps over there correctly, you won't lose almost anything without such an additional thermo cover ), but insted incorporate some brassicas into the soil when you do the Spring tillage of it.
two ways to do it: grow your own if possible and simply incorporate it where you grow them, or get some and incorporate it ( if a previous cooking done, some 3lbs per a m2 should be absolutely sufficient, although the common recommended rate is 5-10lbs per a m2 ).
further more, it's brassica juncea which is the n1 for the process, but thrust me, broccoli isn't that far behind. to be honest about it, when i do a very similar procedure to it i use the plain old cabbage.

it's actually a very interesting subject, and it's gaining quite some space in science efforts to do more on V., F., bacterial wilt and nematodes.
from my experience, i can only confirm it's very highly effective with nematodes, and bacterial wilt could be reduced for over 80% if applied properly, and it definitelly shows some significant overal effects on V. and F., but in general it's an incredibly effective soil improvement procedure.
again, in our conditions here as those are at the moment, it's also quite expensive and hardly financially justified, for commercial growers especially.
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Old September 18, 2013   #379
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Default Pics 9/18/13

Pics from this morning. It looks like I accidentally deleted the 2nd from the left plant/pic -- the experimental MP. BTW, all received a foliar spraying of .2% Cu-Hydroxide (CuPro 5000) in the evening yesterday, as well as a soil drench.
-naysen
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Old September 18, 2013   #380
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Ivan.

Nettle is one of the weeds I am constantly battling and trying to eradicate from my flower beds, it is a very common weed here and difficult to control. Weeding even small nettle plants makes it necessary to wear leather gloves and long-sleeve shirts. It isn't something I would imagine for mulch - it seems the risk of seeding new plants seems too great. I assume, to use, you harvest the small plants before they set seeds? I understand that dried nettles are more nutritious than alfalfa, so I would be very interested in the method you use to work with Nettles and how you keep it from spreading. (Ha!, Sorry again Naysen, for taking this thread off track)

Thanks,
Steve
yep, i know what you are talking about
the little bugger is a really hard one to chase off once it's there, and it also tends to be not so little when conditions appropriate.
in my experience ( a painfull one i might add ), if it really gets to be a problem to you, the only way to really deal with it is to distress it's roots: frequent tillage will chase it off in time, nothing else ( except for RoundUp or something ) could.

as for it's use... oh, it really is a handy one.
1. there is no such source of organic nitro as a nettle.
2. iron and magnesium in significant and available forms there.
3. potassium, significant amount.
4. a combination of vitamines and amino- acides.
5. flavonides, significant amounts ( i'll explain later )
6. finally, that stingy painfull stuff is a very specific poison, actually a copy version of formic acid and some venomous snake stuff. it's an effective insekticide and botrycide actually.

basically, it's used as a fert and as a pesticide.

as a fert:
- you simply cut some to pieces ( leafs, stems, but roots especially if possible- a storage of iron there ), without the seeds of course,
- fill a wooden or plastic ( wooden preffered actually ) bucket with it,
- ''cover'' it with rain water if possible ( if not, you can use plain water but after you left it in an open bucket for a couple of days ), but not to the top of the bucket because the stuff will ''grow'',
- leave it in a sunny place for approx. 15 days, stir once to twice a day,
- don't worry about the stink ( if you ever actually do it you'll see what i'm talking about ), but still cover/close the bucket appropriatelly, it's done when the fluid stuff gets dark color and stops creating anything on the surface ( as i said, 15 days mostly ).

it's used at 10% dilution rate as a drench, 4- 5% dilution rate as a foliar ( which i recommend ).
for many reasons it's just perfect as an additional foliar in the active vegetation phase, twice in 10 days and no more.
once i get to explain the fundamental meaning ( and problems, and scientists dissagreements ) of nitro in V. and F. fight for N., and the meaning of the word ''flavonides'' in the story, it could be easier to understand why i opened the subject. but either way, the fert is just excellent.

as a pesticide:
- cut 1kg of leafs and stems to small pieces
- add 9l of water to it ( again rain water if possible )
- leave it for 24h, stir 5-6 times

use it without dilution. it will fight off quite some aphids, but in addition it will activate the resistance system of a plant to quite a high degree.
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Old September 18, 2013   #381
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Ivan, thanks for the detailed explanation and recipe. I'll copy your formula and give it a try this winter/spring when I am starting my new plants. If I get a chance I'll do a controlled experiment and compare it to my usual fertilizer (soluble 20-20-20 with micros)
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Old September 18, 2013   #382
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finally, i'd like to explain some ''other''stuff.

i was planning to use this fall and winter to make some suggestions to both of you, and try to explain some basics, might be of use, who knows.

but, prior to that, i'd like to clear something else.
namely, this is net, and for all that you know i could be a 12 years old kid with a great surfing ability, or whatever.
what i want to say is: check anything that goes your way from places like this one, and start with me.
in other words, if you actually ever get to try some of the stuff i recommend, do it in an ''experimental'', test manner, and see how it does for you. it's the only sound way.

in that sence, i'll tell a very true story, connected to V. .

as i said earlier, it's been cleared with tests made world wide, that amonium- sulphate forms of nitro ferts had shown significant results in disease reducement.
in particular, some test made in my country definitely confirmed it ( 3 years sequence ). in addition, even a larger set of test in a neighbouring- europian country confirmed it ( 5 years sequence ).
so, what happens as a result of those:
in my country, students are taught that sulfur is efficient in supressing the pathogen.
in the neighbouring country, students are taught that the pathogen doesn't tollerate acid soils well and prefers alkaline ones. why? because ammonium form of nitro significantly decreases the Ph.

what i make of that?
* it's known that sulfur reduces V. ( and plenty of others, F. amongst them ). they also confirm that in the neighbouring country.
* it is not known that those experiments caused pathogen reducement trough the soil Ph lowering- simply, there were no further tests on the specific issue in particular.
* it is known, from another set of tests, but this time done in the third, again neighbouring country, that a comparative analysis of 1) conducting a V. inocculated soil fumigation with soil at 5.8 Ph value, and a 2) simple maintaining of inocculated soil Ph in 6.8 range by the use of bicarbonates, has shown almost identical results in surpressing the pathogen.
* i also know one of the oldest general rules that fungus like acidic, although some exceptions to it.

so, what happens?

i do have some experience with it ( which you cannot confirm anyhow ), and i stand for the fact that it was sulfur reducing V. in that first tests, not amonia. i also stand for that V. prefers slightly acidic soil. finally, to commercial growers i stand for a nitrate form of N ferts to be used when V. present, to home growers i'll always recommend any organic foliar form of it.
but, eventually, the dissagreement still lingers between our guys and theirs, and it's a dissagreement between official fellows ( professors actually ), not some ''lefties''.
so, what would a fellow, uneducated in this field and not familiar with the subject, make of it, what should he believe to?


basically, what i want to say: do check- tests for anything new you encounter along the way, at the end it will always be your mind, knowledge and experience which should resolve the issues, whether it's a V. treatment, a foliar fert, or soil amendments.

i'll explain flavonides later, it's also connected to disease management.
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Old September 18, 2013   #383
Heritage
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Good general advice, Ivan, An old adage here "never put all of your eggs in one basket" is additional sane advice for experimentation at any level. That said, we should always be willing to risk the occasional broken egg for the sake of progress/knowledge

btw... I don't think you know how to surf

Steve
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Old September 18, 2013   #384
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Originally Posted by z_willus_d View Post
Pics from this morning. It looks like I accidentally deleted the 2nd from the left plant/pic -- the experimental MP. BTW, all received a foliar spraying of .2% Cu-Hydroxide (CuPro 5000) in the evening yesterday, as well as a soil drench.
-naysen
i sure hope that the 2nd from the left looks better than the 1st.

seems ok to me for now, but hard to tell from here.
i'd rather take your judgement on it. what do you think, how does it look like so far? have you noticed anything in particular, stems, vigor, morning/evening appearance differences?
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Old September 18, 2013   #385
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and a p.s.

i believe that you should fully remove any tomato plants that you have left in the garden at this point, for the purpose of cleaning the residues to a higher extent.
some of the plants i've noticed on the photos should be removed asap, it's simply enormously easier to clean the soil from left- overs while the root structure is still solid, later it will be an impossible task.
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Old September 18, 2013   #386
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also, a question for Steve, given his painfull and huge mite experience:

although photos not really sharp, i believe i've noticed that specific cetral vein curving on some of the leafs on experimental plants there. most probably already a significant number of early forms present.
in my judgement fenpiroximate he's got there will be just at a perfect moment in few days, and the following should be sulfur some 7 days after that.
what do you think, will it control the issue to the sufficient extent so he doesn't lose the plants to those trespassers?
given the temps, and another sulfur treatment in some 7- 10 days, i estimate he'll make it, but when speaking about mites i would definitely like to have an opinion from someone who knows the territory and conditions there.

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Old September 18, 2013   #387
Heritage
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also, a question for Steve, given his painfull and huge mite experience:

although photos not really sharp, i believe i've noticed that specific cetral vein curving on some of the leafs on experimental plants there. most probably already a significant number of early forms present.
in my judgement fenpiroximate he's got there will be just at a perfect moment in few days, and the following should be sulfur some 7 days after that.
what do you think, will it control the issue to the sufficient extent so he doesn't lose the plants to those trespassers?
given the temps, and another sulfur treatment in some 7- 10 days, i estimate he'll make it, but when speaking about mites i would definitely like to have an opinion from someone who knows the territory and conditions there.
Ivan, I would like to have Naysen verify a mite infestation before making any recommendations. This is one pest Naysen knows intimately and will have no problems identifying. (good point, though, plants from a nursery this time of year are likely infested with mites.)

Steve
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Old September 19, 2013   #388
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and a p.s.

i believe that you should fully remove any tomato plants that you have left in the garden at this point, for the purpose of cleaning the residues to a higher extent.
some of the plants i've noticed on the photos should be removed asap, it's simply enormously easier to clean the soil from left- overs while the root structure is still solid, later it will be an impossible task.
Yes, this is certainly on my radar. I spent two hours clearing out some of the vines in a different bed last Sunday. I managed to get only one fully cleared and a few of the upper branches on a couple others. I'm afraid this clean-up operation is going to take some time. I've been limited to only a few hours per weekend by DW.

I'll certainly prioritize the next candidates around proximity to our experimental area.
-naysen
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Old September 19, 2013   #389
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Ivan, I would like to have Naysen verify a mite infestation before making any recommendations. This is one pest Naysen knows intimately and will have no problems identifying. (good point, though, plants from a nursery this time of year are likely infested with mites.)

Steve
Hi Steve, I already ID'd them in droves in the adjacent "old-vines," but I haven't taken a scope to the new plants. I think first step will be getting those bio-hazard oldies out of the picture. Next I'll take a good look at the closest new comers for actual mites. I've already seen what looks like evidence of them, but I'm not so expert to conclude positive infestation without seeing them alive and ticking on the leaves.

-naysen
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Old September 19, 2013   #390
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Naysen, have you sprayed the new plants with any pesticide since transplanting?
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