I think I'm going no-till - Page 28

Rockporter · July 30, 2017

Salt, you get me listening to music every time you post that link, lol.

dmforcier · July 30, 2017

Here. Have an antidote. https://youtu.be/e3W6yf6c-FA

Cole_Robbie · April 21, 2018

I'm changing the plan this year. I just sprayed my entire garden with roundup to kill off the emerging weeds and grass. I did not like doing that at all, but if it is any environmental offset, I am going to try growing without black plastic mulch this year. It's too much backbreaking work to lay it by hand, plus my weeds just grow up over it, where I bury the edges. I am going to try growing mostly flowers this year. Many of them will be from seed, at least that is the plan, and seeds would have no chance out there on their own.

It was satisfying to kill the horse weed that has plagued me for years. The weeds in my rows are actually not bad, because the plastic has been down for years. I have a lot of old carpet I am going to lay as weed barrier as well. It seems to work a lot better than the real stuff, which lets seeds sprout on top and grow through it.

FourOaks · April 21, 2018

Well man, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Any idea how long you should wait for the Round Up to fizzle away? Dont know if you have considered it, but after your flowers pop up, put down a pre-emergent to control future weeds?

Cole_Robbie · April 21, 2018

My cousin, who used to work for Monsanto, says that as soon as the stuff dries away, you are pretty much good, a matter of hours perhaps. I would never follow that advice, personally, but he is the one with the education in that matter. I have rain forecast all week, which should be good enough for me, to be assured it has washed away.

nbardo · April 22, 2018

Glyphosate (roundup) binds very strongly to organic matter so it doesnt leech out of soil much. It will stay there until it is broken down by soil microbes. My understanding is that its essentially harmless unless applied to leaves, which is why once it dries or is in the soil its harmless. The main risk with it is overspray and blowing in the wind.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BigVanVader · April 24, 2018

Dang dude, I could never spray my garden like that but I understand your reasons. I wish you luck with the flowers. My stuff has been selling great so I am for sure increasing my flower selection again next year. Looking at Harris now and getting a big order together. Any suggestions? https://www.harrisseeds.com/cart

Cole_Robbie · April 24, 2018

Most of my seed attempts have been failures. Zinnias (except for Crystal White), marigolds, celosia, and some dahlias are what I have been able to start from seed. I have not planted my garden yet, so I have a lot that I have not yet tried. Portaluca also seems to do ok from seed if containers are direct-seeded.

Harris did send me a catalog of rooted plugs from greenhouses that are affiliated with them. The two places closest to us are

www.bgardens.com
www.waltersgardens.com

Greatgardens · April 25, 2018

FWIW... I still till a strip for my tomatoes, and then put down 3-ft plastic film. I used to bury the edges, but then I decided to try just using plastic ground pins to anchor the film. Then I put down an apx. 1-ft. band of weed preventer around the perimeter. The only real weeds I get are where I cut the openings to insert the plants. Works really well for me, and the ground pins can be used for several years before they need replacing.
-GG

Edit: Speaking of no-till... my neighbor surprised me last year -- he went out and dug about 1 foot holes in his back yard, then planted determinate tomatoes and peppers in the holes. Left just enough room to run a push mower between the plants. I thought "no way!" But his plants did fine and appeared to yield OK. I'm still amazed that they did well. But we did have plenty of rain, so competition for moisture was evidently not an issue.

Cole_Robbie · April 25, 2018

The problem I have with tilling a strip is that it then becomes sunken ground. I have to till three strips, and then rake the outside two onto the middle one, if I want any sort of raised bed. It's way too much work.

The other thing I learned about tilling is that my soil is so bad that I am better off to bring in new topsoil to make a ridge to grow in than I am tilling up the old clay to make a bed out of that. I get much bigger plants from a small ridge of high quality soil than I do from a big bed of worked clay. My top soil is very thin, 3-4" or so, and the sub-soil is awful for tomatoes.

FourOaks · April 25, 2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

The problem I have with tilling a strip is that it then becomes sunken ground. I have to till three strips, and then rake the outside two onto the middle one, if I want any sort of raised bed. It's way too much work.

The other thing I learned about tilling is that my soil is so bad that I am better off to bring in new topsoil to make a ridge to grow in than I am tilling up the old clay to make a bed out of that. I get much bigger plants from a small ridge of high quality soil than I do from a big bed of worked clay. My top soil is very thin, 3-4" or so, and the sub-soil is awful for tomatoes.

Cole.. im honestly surprised you havent done something along the lines of AKMarks setup. Believe me, it works. I use 36 5/7 gallon bags, 2 plants per bag. I mix fertilizer in an IBC tote and use a shallow well pump to move the nutrients to the plants.

Im in a similar but unrelated soil situation. Mine has traces of some disease, and more importantly, it drains like a swamp. My only choice involves, containers, grow bags, and raised beds. I use GH Ground Cover in between the beds, but leave those beds bottomless. Im hoping that yearly additions of compost, leaf mulch, etc will slowly improve the soil, but I know it will take several years. I have about 4.5 acres, and nearly every square foot has drainage problems. In the Winter and Spring its a swamp. Summer and Fall the soil is hard as hell.

I know you want to get out of the produce business, but you might try it, just for personal use.

Cole_Robbie · April 26, 2018

It's mostly economics. I happen to live in an area of the country with very good soil and very low produce prices. I think hydro is great and I would love to grow that way, but the initial outlay of money takes years to re-coup. I know of one successful greenhouse tomato grower here. He has Cherokee Purples right now for sale that are quite good, but I think he is still only getting $2.50 a pound for them, and that's before most people here have even planted a garden. He has a team of migrant laborers who live on his farm and keep the wood stove burning overnight.

I pulled out a lot of Johnson Grass roots over the winter. I suspect my tomato disease spores may have been living on those roots. We shall see.

As far as soil-building taking time, that is true, but if you can find good soil existing somewhere already like I did, soil-moving is much faster.

July 30, 2017	#406
Rockporter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Texas Coastal Bend Posts: 3,205	Salt, you get me listening to music every time you post that link, lol. __________________ In the spring at the end of the day you should smell like dirt ~Margaret Atwood~

July 30, 2017	#407
dmforcier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,825	Here. Have an antidote. https://youtu.be/e3W6yf6c-FA __________________ Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

April 25, 2018	#414
Greatgardens Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,124	FWIW... I still till a strip for my tomatoes, and then put down 3-ft plastic film. I used to bury the edges, but then I decided to try just using plastic ground pins to anchor the film. Then I put down an apx. 1-ft. band of weed preventer around the perimeter. The only real weeds I get are where I cut the openings to insert the plants. Works really well for me, and the ground pins can be used for several years before they need replacing. -GG Edit: Speaking of no-till... my neighbor surprised me last year -- he went out and dug about 1 foot holes in his back yard, then planted determinate tomatoes and peppers in the holes. Left just enough room to run a push mower between the plants. I thought "no way!" But his plants did fine and appeared to yield OK. I'm still amazed that they did well. But we did have plenty of rain, so competition for moisture was evidently not an issue. Last edited by Greatgardens; April 25, 2018 at 06:27 AM.

April 21, 2018	#408
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I'm changing the plan this year. I just sprayed my entire garden with roundup to kill off the emerging weeds and grass. I did not like doing that at all, but if it is any environmental offset, I am going to try growing without black plastic mulch this year. It's too much backbreaking work to lay it by hand, plus my weeds just grow up over it, where I bury the edges. I am going to try growing mostly flowers this year. Many of them will be from seed, at least that is the plan, and seeds would have no chance out there on their own. It was satisfying to kill the horse weed that has plagued me for years. The weeds in my rows are actually not bad, because the plastic has been down for years. I have a lot of old carpet I am going to lay as weed barrier as well. It seems to work a lot better than the real stuff, which lets seeds sprout on top and grow through it.

April 21, 2018	#409
FourOaks Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: NC Posts: 511	Well man, you gotta do what you gotta do. Any idea how long you should wait for the Round Up to fizzle away? Dont know if you have considered it, but after your flowers pop up, put down a pre-emergent to control future weeds?

April 21, 2018	#410
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	My cousin, who used to work for Monsanto, says that as soon as the stuff dries away, you are pretty much good, a matter of hours perhaps. I would never follow that advice, personally, but he is the one with the education in that matter. I have rain forecast all week, which should be good enough for me, to be assured it has washed away.

April 22, 2018	#411
nbardo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 78	Glyphosate (roundup) binds very strongly to organic matter so it doesnt leech out of soil much. It will stay there until it is broken down by soil microbes. My understanding is that its essentially harmless unless applied to leaves, which is why once it dries or is in the soil its harmless. The main risk with it is overspray and blowing in the wind. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

April 24, 2018	#412
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Dang dude, I could never spray my garden like that but I understand your reasons. I wish you luck with the flowers. My stuff has been selling great so I am for sure increasing my flower selection again next year. Looking at Harris now and getting a big order together. Any suggestions? https://www.harrisseeds.com/cart

April 24, 2018	#413
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	Most of my seed attempts have been failures. Zinnias (except for Crystal White), marigolds, celosia, and some dahlias are what I have been able to start from seed. I have not planted my garden yet, so I have a lot that I have not yet tried. Portaluca also seems to do ok from seed if containers are direct-seeded. Harris did send me a catalog of rooted plugs from greenhouses that are affiliated with them. The two places closest to us are www.bgardens.com www.waltersgardens.com

April 25, 2018	#415
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	The problem I have with tilling a strip is that it then becomes sunken ground. I have to till three strips, and then rake the outside two onto the middle one, if I want any sort of raised bed. It's way too much work. The other thing I learned about tilling is that my soil is so bad that I am better off to bring in new topsoil to make a ridge to grow in than I am tilling up the old clay to make a bed out of that. I get much bigger plants from a small ridge of high quality soil than I do from a big bed of worked clay. My top soil is very thin, 3-4" or so, and the sub-soil is awful for tomatoes.

April 26, 2018	#417
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	It's mostly economics. I happen to live in an area of the country with very good soil and very low produce prices. I think hydro is great and I would love to grow that way, but the initial outlay of money takes years to re-coup. I know of one successful greenhouse tomato grower here. He has Cherokee Purples right now for sale that are quite good, but I think he is still only getting $2.50 a pound for them, and that's before most people here have even planted a garden. He has a team of migrant laborers who live on his farm and keep the wood stove burning overnight. I pulled out a lot of Johnson Grass roots over the winter. I suspect my tomato disease spores may have been living on those roots. We shall see. As far as soil-building taking time, that is true, but if you can find good soil existing somewhere already like I did, soil-moving is much faster.