Breeding for Pastes

[gssgarden]

Whwoz, That's my Shannon's. I posted it after Crmauch posted his pics of the crosses he made with it.

Yes, it will get nice and red at maturity.

Greg

[drew51]

I culled out San Marzano this year because of problems with the seedlings. Upon further reading see it comes from a dry region with a long season, so I would think brokenbar could grow excellent examples. Costoluto Genovese is more suited to my environment even though it too is from a warmer region than mine. Seems to do better than San Marzano. San Marzano is from a mountainous region, so maybe it's the elevation? I agree though you are very correct about being influenced by climate, but I would argue with Costoluto Genovese it is much less of a factor than with San Marzano.
Tomatoes are funny. Russo Sicilian Togetta seems to perform well in Mexico, but also in Michigan. As brokenbar mentions, it grows well no matter what. She seems spot on in that observation. It is out performing all my other cultivars. I will be growing this one again!
Thomas Jefferson notes growing Costoluto Genovese in his Notes on the State of Virginia in 1782. Man that's a loooong time ago!

I often hate the Michigan winters, but must say our middle of the road environment allows us to grow anything. Brokenbar cannot grow strawberries and currants. Even most raspberries will not grow well there. So I'm pretty happy to be here.
See my report on pineberries
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=32958&highlight=pineberry

[Whwoz]

Thanks for that, one I'm not familiar with and not sure if it is available here Down Under. Will be looking though.

Woz

Originally Posted by gssgarden

Whwoz, That's my Shannon's. I posted it after Crmauch posted his pics of the crosses he made with it.

Yes, it will get nice and red at maturity.

Greg

[crmauch]

Here's a question. It's been said a number of times a paste needs to have a lower moisture content i.e. be 'dry'. I can see small seed cavities and low amounts of gel. How would one determine if a tomato from a breeding program is 'dry'? I can think of one way, but is seems involved to me and I'm not sure how accurate it would be. Suggestions welcome.

[joseph]

In addition to the look test and the trial and error test, I suppose that one could weigh a tomato, slice it, dehydrate it, then weigh it again. That would give a scientific measure of dryness.

Perhaps a quick and dirty equivalent of that test would be to put a tomato in a washcloth and then squeeze it to extract juice. Perhaps that would be a good first approximation of how dry the tomato is.

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by joseph

In addition to the look test and the trial and error test, I suppose that one could weigh a tomato, slice it, dehydrate it, then weigh it again. That would give a scientific measure of dryness.

That's kind of what I thought. Although I might reweigh after removing seeds and gel as I would want to get the dryness of the flesh as the seeds would be removed before processing. One 'caveat' would be how you would know you'd dried different tomatoes to the same level of dryness?

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by joseph

In addition to the look test and the trial and error test, I suppose that one could weigh a tomato, slice it, dehydrate it, then weigh it again. That would give a scientific measure of dryness.

Perhaps a quick and dirty equivalent of that test would be to put a tomato in a washcloth and then squeeze it to extract juice. Perhaps that would be a good first approximation of how dry the tomato is.

Joseph I hope you have a gun powder scale to weigh the tomato after it is dry.

Worth

[brokenbar]

Okay...take five tomatoes each of 5 varieties. Remove skins, seeds, gel fraction. Smash them up or run through food mill separately. Place final smashed product of each variety in a clear container. wait...the clear liquid will sink to the bottom and the sauce will rise to the top. Measure the clear liquid from each variety and you will see which variety is "low moisture" and which is not. Paste tomato varieties are generally less moist (but some that are touted as "paste" really are not and contain much to much liquid and seeds...)

As I had a sun dried tomato business, I got to complete the above process for more varieties than you can imagine and the "dryness" was a BIG factor for me, with taste next and texture after that. Few seeds is also a big deal because dried tomatoes are not de-seeded...(Is that a word? Well, it is now...)

With drying or sauce, you want the most finished product you can get rather than a bucket full of seeds/skins/clear liquid to throw away and only a quarter of a bucket full of product to keep. Seedy, gel-filled, smallish slicing tomatoes are the same amount of work but you get far less rewards and they are meant to eat fresh so you lose way too much flavor and texture when they are cooked.

It just depends on what you are growing tomatoes for. Most people have some limit on available space () If you want to make sauce or dry tomatoes, you should maximize your space with varieties that will give you the most bang for your bucket!

But hey...each to his own. I am by far the least typical tomato grower on this forum. I grow NO tomatoes for just eating (do people really eat them? How strange...) or for salads or sandwiches. No different colors, no bizarro shapes (well...Costoluto Genovese is a little weirdly shaped) No cherry tomatoes (it should be illegal to grow them...) No dwarfs or determinates (determinate stands for "it is pre-determined how many you will get and it is never enough on a too-small bush...")

And Swamper is right...climate, growing season, soil are all factors in a tomatoes final taste and some varieties just grow better in some places than others...

You know, I am really glad I don't have to make all the decisions all of the other growers on this forum do...way too complicated and way to many varieties "you just have to try"!

Got the tomatoes down to six varieties and will be winnowing down the pepper list (I only want them for ristras and wreath...no eating...) I don't eat vegetables of any kind, ever and I don't eat meat...makes it simpler!

But ask yourself...how many fresh tomatoes can you really eat? And at the beginning of the season, friends and family are happy to take extras off your hands but by the end of the season, they cross the street to avoid you and cringe when they see the large plastic bag in your hand..."Dang...how may tomatoes does she think we can eat for crimmeny sakes? I threw the last ones she gave us away when I was sure she wouldn't see them in my trash...Please God...enough is enough!"

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by brokenbar

Okay...take five tomatoes each of 5 varieties. Remove skins, seeds, gel fraction. Smash them up or run through food mill separately. Place final smashed product of each variety in a clear container. wait...the clear liquid will sink to the bottom and the sauce will rise to the top. Measure the clear liquid from each variety and you will see which variety is "low moisture" and which is not. Paste tomato varieties are generally less moist (but some that are touted as "paste" really are not and contain much to much liquid and seeds...)

Thanks!!! This is helpful.

Originally Posted by brokenbar

... I don't eat vegetables of any kind, ever and I don't eat meat...makes it simpler!

So you live on air??

[brokenbar]

Originally Posted by crmauch

Thanks!!! This is helpful.




So you live on air??

Rice, fish, bread, for almost 30 years. I am definitely not a foodie!

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by brokenbar

Rice, fish, bread, for almost 30 years. I am definitely not a foodie!

Your a finny as in fish fin.
I agree with the too many kinds of tomatoes.
It just gets ridiculous after a while.

Worth

[Fusion_power]

Just noting for reference that climate is everything. I was thoroughly impressed with Brokenbar's Costoluto Genovese which was a wonderful producer last year. I have been totally unimpressed by Russo Sicilian Togeta this year, mostly because it is a septoria magnet. Climate, climate, climate.

Brokenbar, are you sure you don't eat a grape now and then. Surely you eat a grape.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Just noting for reference that climate is everything. I was thoroughly impressed with Brokenbar's Costoluto Genovese which was a wonderful producer last year. I have been totally unimpressed by Russo Sicilian Togeta this year, mostly because it is a septoria magnet. Climate, climate, climate.

Brokenbar, are you sure you don't eat a grape now and then. Surely you eat a grape.

Thanks for the info. Yes, interesting. I guess it doesn't grow well all over. It grows well here. The Midwest is really quite dry. Minnisota has less rainfall than Texas. We have 1 inch more than Texas.
Alabama get's 58.3 inches ranked 4th most, wow!
Michigan is 32.8 ranked 32nd most rain by state.

I envy brokenbar, I have a weight problem, so no carbs for me! No rice or bread. I catch my own fish.
I eat carbs once in a while. If I could only eat vegetables or meat, it would be meat, if one meat it would be beef. I could eat that everyday. We have canine teeth for a reason!

[swamper]

Originally Posted by drew51

I culled out San Marzano this year because of problems with the seedlings.

Since the topic is breeding for pastes, I'm surprised nobody has elaborated on the wispy leaved tomatoes that are often very slow to develop, compared to regular leaved plums.

I know that one of my goals with breeding pastes is to incorporate more seedling vigor into my favorite wispy variety. Short of reaching that goal, are there tried and true techniques to assure that wispy varieties reach maturity more quickly?

On the topic of San Marzano, there are probably a lot of variations on what is sold and traded as San Marzano. I've seen wispy and non-wispy San Marzanos for example. There are also a lot of similar varieties with new names that might be better adapted to differing climates. My point is it's not safe to generalize given the likely variations that exist.

[brokenbar]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Just noting for reference that climate is everything. I was thoroughly impressed with Brokenbar's Costoluto Genovese which was a wonderful producer last year. I have been totally unimpressed by Russo Sicilian Togeta this year, mostly because it is a septoria magnet. Climate, climate, climate.

Brokenbar, are you sure you don't eat a grape now and then. Surely you eat a grape.

No fruit, ever. Also no dairy (cheese, yogurt, ice cream-allergic) or eggs (allergic) no shellfish (allergic) No sugar of any kind and no processed foods. If it comes in a box, can or bag, not having any. Coffee and tea...YEAH I go down to the docks every morning and pick out my fish...I am so uninterested in food that I can eat the same thing every day...I have to eat to survive so I eat but I cannot understand everyone's fascination with food...all those ridiculous cooking shows and shows about bizarro chefs, people paying astronomical amounts of money to eat at some chi chi restaurant...I just don't get it. Luckily, when we travel, fish is usually an option 99% of the time as is rice (except in Italy where we go all the time because I speak Italian and am really interested in archeology and they rarely have anything I want to eat on a menu unless we are somewhere on the coast. ) I was a chef that cooked her way through collage and vet school in a very upscale Italian restaurant. I am a great cook but never eat the stuff I cook...hate pasta and think ricotta cheese should be outlawed. I am definitely a whacko...My Husband and Son more than made up for my lack of interest in food and now both of them have had to lose weight to lower killer cholesterol and bring blood pressure out of the nuclear strata...They have both changed their diets and all I hear is non-stop boohooing. It is just food for heavens sake...

I really do not get it...but on the other hand, they both think I'm nuts so it evens out