Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[Doug9345]

I don't think this is any different than any other industry when it comes to the mix of the "type" of companies that are in it. There are a number that try to do they very best they can. There are others that do a much poorer job because they just down know any better or their standards are pretty low. Still others are there to make a quick buck and will go onto other things when the quick bucks disappear.

Fortunately the bar that most people start with when it comes to eating tomatoes is low. If you start with a store bought tomato as a standard then I don't think a mouse could crawl under that bar. They decide to grow their own tomato because it looks like fun, to save money or because their Grand Parents did and buy some plants from where the shop otherwise.

As they become more interested in tomato they will go looking for other sources. Some will buy seed from places that are selling unstablized seed and will either learn or be happy with what they get. If they become more sophisticated growers they will find the better small seed sellers.

A good parallel is micro breweries. Their product isn't aimed at the person that just wants to know how cheap they can get drunk this weekend. There are also small breweries that turn out a very poor product but give it a fancy name and get fancy prices for it.

I think it all helps to drive the niche seed business.

[Darren Abbey]

Regarding 'Jim Dandy': If it is a potato-leaf variety, even if unstable for many other traits, it shouldn't be able to throw regular-leaved progeny without them being the result of a new cross... (ignoring the lower incidence of reversion mutations) since the potato-leaf trait is the recessive form.

So, a site claiming that their potato leaf variety may occasionally throw regular leaf offspring not only suggests instability, it also suggests they don't have good controls to prevent hybridization in their seed source.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Darren Abbey

Regarding 'Jim Dandy': If it is a potato-leaf variety, even if unstable for many other traits, it shouldn't be able to throw regular-leaved progeny without them being the result of a new cross... (ignoring the lower incidence of reversion mutations) since the potato-leaf trait is the recessive form.

So, a site claiming that their potato leaf variety may occasionally throw regular leaf offspring not only suggests instability, it also suggests they don't have good controls to prevent hybridization in their seed source.

I was typing my answer when you posted the above.

There could be a reversion of the original mutation from RL to PL, but only if the original mutation was a single spontaneous one, and I agree that reverse mutations of that kind are rare indeed b'c of the statistics involved in getting just ONE gene in the genome to revert.

Carolyn, who worked with mutational events with both bacteria and viruses and knew of the various DNA mutations with them, as to subsequent changes, but for some stupid reason never thought of it with tomatoes until Keith M shared that with her, so thanks to Keith for that.

[surf4grrl]

As long as things are sold as unstable varieties, I don't see a terrible problem - unless you consider a crazy glut of names and crosses for the sake of crosses an issue. I buy from Tom Wagner - I like his crosses and will continue to do so - but I don't share that seed because it is unstable.

My problem with growers who cross is what I perceive as outright lying.

For example, I was given seeds by a certain someone for Sweet Beverly in winter of 2011, I planted out 30-40 plants of that and lo and behold got 4 different segregates.

I posted this on the tomato dep0t with pics in fall of 2011 as requested because no one there believed me. I have since grown it out and gotten the same segregates.

Which means to me, it's unstable.

Not only was I basically called a liar, and the whole thing forgotten, but then this certain someone came out with a "mutation" of Sweet Beverly a mere 3-4 months after I called this unstable variety to their attention, now called Sweet Sharon. Kinda funny how that happened.

Why does this matter? It matters because for those of us that really care about the craft, also care about the ethics and integrity and basically the truth about the history about what we're doing.

It's easy to re-name tomatoes, it's easy to have crosses - it happens all by itself if you grow enough. I am really, really disappointed in a few folks. It was heartbreaking to leave that community, but I did so out my conscience. I vote with my wallet now. The varieties I find to be interesting by ethical breeders, I'll buy and pay a premium for. Not so with others.

I will be posting a photo that I posted at the depot in fall of 2011 to show the segregation that included what is now known as Sweet Sharon, if necessary.

No one's perfect and everyone makes mistakes; I used to think tomato folks were kind and decent - until I found out a few weren't and then I got smart. People are people.

Don't drink anyone's Kool-Aid kids.

[surf4grrl]

So, I did try - to no avail - to get somewhere with this in 2011 - decide for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it with an apology. So far, every breeder I've spoken to has agreed with me.

[doublehelix]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

So, I did try - to no avail - to get somewhere with this in 2011 - decide for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it with an apology. So far, every breeder I've spoken to has agreed with me.

Bravo Sur4grrl.

I too was dismissed over that tomato and the one called Black Anna, now called Darth Mater.

If someone started passing around seeds from an old heirloom claiming they had been growing it for more than a decade and everyone started getting different tomatoes, what would you think?

What if you saw two fruit colors, four fruit shapes, three different growth habits and several fruit sizes? I know what I would think. I would think they were lying about how long they have been growing that tomato.

I would also conclude that it was not a long lost heirloom but in fact a segregating hybrid grow out. I know that if I found an old heirloom growing on an abandoned farm I would not wait a decade to mention it. Would you?

But every single one of Dean's followers, including Bill, just keeps going right along with the Sweet Beverley story, supporting and defending what is to any rational person a total fabrication.

You and I were dismissed because that is not a forum, it is a cult.

Dean uses the oldest manipulation tool in the book. The technique has been used for generations by Pedophiles and Cult leaders.

"I am giving you something special", "I am telling you something secret", "you are part of the inner circle".

They take things from us breeders and then give them away to unsuspecting people recruited to join their forum. I am sure if anyone over there would reflect on their interactions with the group leaders will see this to be true.

Silly isn't it?

[surf4grrl]

I have my own thoughts on the personal character and integrity of some individuals - and if you know me, you know what they are.

I'm not here to talk about anyone's personal failings - no matter how glaring I feel them to be and how they have affected me as someone who believed what I was told. Leave that for other forums.

My problem is with intentional misrepresentation to the average gardener or consumer all the while claiming to better the profession. To proclaim to be one of the best...

How about starting with the truth, instead of mythology?

Ask a farmer who grows professionally if they can hand irrigate 10,000+ tomatoes using a garden hose "the old fashioned way". Yeah, that was stated in 2011 too.

LOL

I don't care about anyone's personal idiosyncrasies or failings - and I certainly don't want to assassinate anyone's character either.

But to call people liars when they observe and measure identifiable results from seed they received is wrong. Why not just say its an unstabilized cross - I still would have grown it - now I won't grow anything I got from there because it's bogus to me. I never could get a straight story.

I'm sick of the lies, ego, and bravado surrounding tomatoes - all to what - to have the most? To be the coolest? I dunno, it escapes me, high school has long passed me by.

Sweet Beverley is a mutation? Yeah, of the truth.

Tell me those variants in that photo are a mutation with the very first time I grew it out with the seeds I had. Really?

[Mischka]

Here's another example of unstable hybrids being masqueraded as stable varieties at Marianna's Heirloom Seeds. This one is named "MoCross" (Mozark x Sioux) and was crossed by Bill Jeffers, although the description at Marianna's omits this information and insinuates otherwise.

Bill states in a post dated 2/2012, (see below) that this cross is at F2 and unstable, yet it's now being sold at Marianna's for 2013 as fully stabilized. Their description that the seeds produce "fully-determinate, semi-determinate or semi-indeterminate hotset vines" is both laughable and a red warning flag.

[travis]

Allow me to explain a bit ...

The photo in the link provided by Mischka shows a tomato picked in 2011 off an F2 MoCross vine. Therefore the seeds taken from that F2 fruit are F3 seeds. I grew out those F3 seeds in 2012, selected individual vines from that grow-out, and saved the resulting F4 seeds according to selected plant and fruit characteristics. [After The Future, in Post #53, pointed out the error, I corrected the filial generations as shown above in red.]

The F3 seed taken from the 2011, F2 tomato was sold in 2012, and again this year, as MOX311S (MoCross, F3, 2011 production year, from a semi-indeterminate vine) ... that's what the coded designation indicates. As with the same batch of F3 seeds which I grew-out in 2012, I expect others to see what I saw ... a continuation of segregation and recombination of both semi-inderminate (a classification accepted by tomato breeders) and "semi-indeterminate" vines, a classifiction that I explain in a message in the link provided by Mischka.

If there is any question regarding what I mean by "semi-indeterminate," you may contact me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com, and I will be glad to discuss it further via email.

And yes, I have closely observed, recorded, and discussed the extent of hotset capability of MoCross generally, and specifically regarding the selected lines I have been working with since I made the original cross several years ago.

Speaking of the original cross, I made that cross using Mozark seeds I received from the University of Missouri, Columbia, from Dr. Trinklein. Mozark is a discontinued seed line from Mizzou. It was used to breed several hybrids that were popular in the late 1960s and 1970s, among them Avalanche (Mozark x Glamour), and MoCross Surprise (Mozark x Sioux).

The cross I made, and which I call MoCross, is the replication of MoCross Surprise, I just left off the "Surprise" half of the name, because I am not distributing the F1 seeds, only F2, F3, F4, etc.

I do retain several F1 seeds for future F2 seed production. I have distributed, and intend to continue distributing F2 MoCross seeds, whether for trade, for sale, or for free, so that others can grow them out and experience what I have enjoyed ... selecting the various expressions of vine growth habit, including determinate, semi-determinate, and semi-indeterminate, all of which have their individual characteristics, qualities, benefits, and uses. Again, if anyone is interested in details of what I just said, you may contact me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com for more discussion.

As to the fruit, I have never gotten anything from MoCross, regardless of the filial generation, including the F1, where the fruit was anything but, on average, baseball size, slightly flat-round tomatoes with slightly ruffled shoulders. Additionally, the tomatoes seldom crack or split, and the flavor is well above average, tending toward delicious, acid-leaning, slicer/canners.

I have photos of several generations beginning with the F1 to show what I am speaking about.

With regard to MoCross Elgin, it's fully determinate, and I expect it to remain fully stable for fully determinate, as it has show such for the past two grow-outs. MoCross Elgin is the result of F2 seeds I sent to Susan Anderson in Elgin, Texas. She grew the F2 seeds, and sent me back the determinate selection. I can check my records, but I think she sent me back seeds two times, but I cannot swear they were product of two separate growth seasons, so I will not claim they were anything beyond F3 seeds that Susan sent back. I grew them in 2012, and collected F4 seeds from the most productive single vine which put out 42 or 43 baseball size, red, crack free tomatoes pretty much ripening all at the same time.

Why do I claim hotset? Because for the past two years, all the MoCross vines from which I have saved seeds for distribution have set fruit in daytime temperatures from 93 to 98* Fahrenheit. I have recorded fruit set carefully, and kept records of the daytime temps in the 10 days preceeding confirmation of fruit set. I confirmed the fruit set with photographs of the tiny, green ova, and kept written records of my methods.

I take this hotset development very seriously, and don't make any claims frivolously or with the intent to deceive. In addition to Mozark x Sioux, I have made crosses of (Mozark x Sioux) x Neptune, (Mozark x Sioux) x Monte Verde, and Monte Verde x Neptune. I also maintain varieties and lines from NCSU, IFAS, and other sources in a private program to develop hotset and high beta carotene, high lycopene lines for future release.

I do not think anything I have said anywhere online, or anything that I have submitted in writing to be published as a description or explanation at the seed sales site that Mischka linked in his post is misleading as to the degree of stability of the seeds I have offered for trade, for sale, or for free.

If there is any misunderstanding by anyone, or if anyone feels that anything I have said or done is misleading or misrepresenting as to the stability or characteristics of the seeds or the plants resulting from the seeds that came from me, then please let me know by email, at tomatohead48@hotmail.com, and I will do all in my power to correct the misunderstanding or perceived misrepresentation.

I intend to continue with my private tomato crossing and selection. And whether or where the resulting germplasm is distributed, I intend to continue distributing it in unstable, intermediately stable, and fully stable condition. I feel what I am doing is worthy and that many people have enjoyed growing my seeds. What I am doing really is no different that what Tom Wagner is doing with the sales and distribution of his unstable lines of anthocyanin tomatoes. Lots of folks appreciate and are having fun growing his tomatoes, too.

So, I appreciate all your comments and suggestions, and do not take any to offence unless you clearly intend for me to do so. But I spent a lifetime in politics, so you will find it very hard to truly offend me, as I understand human nature pretty well. I hope you understand me and my intent.

Peace,

Bill Jeffers

[The Future]

Originally Posted by travis

Allow me to explain a bit ...

The photo in the link provided by Mischka shows a tomato picked in 2011 off an F2 MoCross vine. Therefore the seeds taken from that F2 fruit are F4 seeds. I grew out those F4 seeds in 2012, selected individual vines from that grow-out, and saved the resulting F5 seeds according to selected plant and fruit characteristics.

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

As for hotset vines, I am genuinely interested in them. My question: what was the LOW temperature on the days the fruit was said to set?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by The Future

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

As for hotset vines, I am genuinely interested in them. My question: what was the LOW temperature on the days the fruit was said to set?

I was thrown by the wording at first myself, but near as I can tell what he meant was he took seed from that F2 and grew plants....those plants would be F3's....so seeds from those F3's that he saved would grow F4 plants.

[travis]

Originally Posted by The Future

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

You are correct. I typed in error in that sentence. If you read the second paragraph of the same message, you will see that I typed the correct filial generation sequence for the same tomatoes. Sorry for the mistake. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I have made the necessary corrections in red in the message you quoted.

Originally Posted by travis

The F3 seed taken from the 2011, F2 tomato was sold in 2012, and again this year, as MOX311S (MoCross, F3, 2011 production year, from a semi-indeterminate vine) ... that's what the coded designation indicates. As with the same batch of F3 seeds which I grew-out in 2012, I expect others to see what I saw ...

[surf4grrl]

I find very unfortunate and sad, actually that this is being spun as jealousy. Someone sounds like they have a North Korea complex.

Steve's problem is with theft, I think that was outlined clearly. If you look back onto another forum which was an offshoot for only tomatoes; things have been said along similar lines, which effectively spelled the demise of said forum. There's so much swapping going on of crosses; it's easy for an individuals to swipe someone elses work. This is a good lesson for us all; don't swap unless you want your work possibly stolen. That, or in better business arrangements, get a reciprocal contract.

Good on Bill for being truthful about his crosses. My problem is I was deceived on purpose about something I was given. Again, this has been outlined clearly over time - which others also echoed similar sentiments. Now I won't grow it or sell because I might as well start selling "Sungolds" as "surf4grrls orange" or "Mortgage Lifter" as "Enormous red giant".

Not everyone is going to get along and like each other, but please let's at least start with being honest about we are actually growing, who we got it from, not re-naming stuff that isn't yours, not taking someone else work and claiming credit - I think you all get the point.

I appreciate crosses and breeding and will buy those seeds, but only from reputable sellers. This isn't the issue. It's about what I feel is deliberate deception and theft in order to race to the top of the very non-existent "king of all tomatoes" or some such asinine nonsense.

[surf4grrl]

Hot gosh darnoodley! You know, it occurred to me since the person that gave me Sweet Beverley said it was completely stable, and gee I got these segregants - I guess it crossed in my field..hmmmmm......



That's means I have 2 or 3 new varieties to grow out and name!!!! Imagine that!

I'll let Doublehelix (and I have a few others in mind) name them - how awesome would that be...

[PaddyMc]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

I find very unfortunate and sad, actually that this is being spun as jealousy. Someone sounds like they have a North Korea complex.

Steve's problem is with theft, I think that was outlined clearly. If you look back onto another forum which was an offshoot for only tomatoes; things have been said along similar lines, which effectively spelled the demise of said forum. There's so much swapping going on of crosses; it's easy for an individuals to swipe someone elses work. This is a good lesson for us all; don't swap unless you want your work possibly stolen. That, or in better business arrangements, get a reciprocal contract.

Good on Bill for being truthful about his crosses. My problem is I was deceived on purpose about something I was given. Again, this has been outlined clearly over time - which others also echoed similar sentiments. Now I won't grow it or sell because I might as well start selling "Sungolds" as "surf4grrls orange" or "Mortgage Lifter" as "Enormous red giant".

Not everyone is going to get along and like each other, but please let's at least start with being honest about we are actually growing, who we got it from, not re-naming stuff that isn't yours, not taking someone else work and claiming credit - I think you all get the point.

I appreciate crosses and breeding and will buy those seeds, but only from reputable sellers. This isn't the issue. It's about what I feel is deliberate deception and theft in order to race to the top of the very non-existent "king of all tomatoes" or some such asinine nonsense.

I'll buy that, IF something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.