Why not grow hybrids instead of heirlooms?

[joseph]

The way I look at it, heirlooms are varieties that were developed a lifetime ago, in areas far far away with different bugs, soils, climates, and ways of doing things. There are no heirlooms available to me that were developed in my area. Because of my unique growing conditions that pretty much means, that for me, all heirlooms do poorly.

Modern commercial hybrids are tested to do well in average garden across wide ranges of conditions. They perform much better for me. My garden is far from average, but at least the hybrid plant breeders have made some attempt to select for varieties that do well under modern growing conditions.

The tomatoes that I most enjoy growing, and that do the best for me, are the offspring of promiscuously pollinating tomatoes that grew in my garden. I watch for the occasional natural hybrids, and plant those in large quantities. That way the plants get localized to my garden and way of doing things. I get to select for exactly those traits that work for me.

To me, raw tomatoes pretty much taste horrid, so I don't have to worry about whether heirlooms or hybrids taste better.

[Dewayne mater]

For me, my top 10 reasons to grow heirlooms are all taste.

I do grow Big Beef and Sungold annually and I do admit one of my favorites is a hybrid, sungold.

However, no beefsteak sized hybrid is even in the ballpark of flavor of any of a number of those in the Brandywine line and a few of the black tomatoes I adore. I cannot count the number of folks who have been converted to heirloom mania by one taste of a fully ripe heirloom tomato grown in my suburban yard.

I will say that for folks that do this for financial reasons, in DFW the price that heirlooms command from both high end restaurants and farmers markets are substantially higher than hybrids.

Also on my list of why grow Heirlooms is that I do not want Big Food Inc commanding complete control of the food supply. They will always do what they believe achieves maximum profits and that's ok. However, I think they determine profits in the short term and are unconcerned with aspects of farming that I believe we should all be concerned with. Examples some of the pesticides, fertilizers and GMOs have been created with the well meaning idea of maximizing yield. The problem I have with the way they maximize yield is they only look at the impact of yield of this crop and ignore what you are doing to the food itself, the land, the environment and ecosystem, and they do not taking into account the true cost of the food created.

I don't think people that think in this way are good stewards of the land or the people and they shouldn't be allowed to control all aspects of the food supply.

Dewayne Mater

[Marcus1]

I grow both hybrids and heirlooms. Last season about 2200 hybrids and 500 heirlooms. My customers buy the hybrids more than the heirlooms by probably a 7 to 1 margin. I don't agree with the blanket statements that hybrids lack flavor nor do my customers judging by their complements and their purchases. I would put a well grown Goliath (Pio) up against just about all the different heirlooms I grow for flavor on my farm here in CO. Don't get me wrong I enjoy all the various flavors of the different heirlooms I grow but my primary goal is to provide my customers with what they desire .

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Dewayne mater

For me, my top 10 reasons to grow heirlooms are all taste.

I do grow Big Beef and Sungold annually and I do admit one of my favorites is a hybrid, sungold.

However, no beefsteak sized hybrid is even in the ballpark of flavor of any of a number of those in the Brandywine line and a few of the black tomatoes I adore. I cannot count the number of folks who have been converted to heirloom mania by one taste of a fully ripe heirloom tomato grown in my suburban yard.

I will say that for folks that do this for financial reasons, in DFW the price that heirlooms command from both high end restaurants and farmers markets are substantially higher than hybrids.

Also on my list of why grow Heirlooms is that I do not want Big Food Inc commanding complete control of the food supply. They will always do what they believe achieves maximum profits and that's ok. However, I think they determine profits in the short term and are unconcerned with aspects of farming that I believe we should all be concerned with. Examples some of the pesticides, fertilizers and GMOs have been created with the well meaning idea of maximizing yield. The problem I have with the way they maximize yield is they only look at the impact of yield of this crop and ignore what you are doing to the food itself, the land, the environment and ecosystem, and they do not taking into account the true cost of the food created.

I don't think people that think in this way are good stewards of the land or the people and they shouldn't be allowed to control all aspects of the food supply.

Dewayne Mater

Well the problem is to make a profit you have to give the people what they want, so if you insist on blaming somebody blame the masses who insist on perfect tomatoes that have a long shelf life. The companies only make money when they sell product. They are producing exactly what most people want. Change the people's minds and they will change too. They could care less what they produce as long as it sells, and if people would buy products only made in a sustainable way, they would only grow products that way. What you are asking them to do is go out of business because if they produce in a way you find favorable they will not survive, so of course they are not going to change. I wouldn't either!

[Sun City Linda]

I agree that there are surely many good tasting hybrid tomatoes but I don't think most of us would consider your typical, cardboard, picked green and gassed grocery store tomato in that category.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by drew51

What you are asking them to do is go out of business because if they produce in a way you find favorable they will not survive.

Yep! Out of business! A wonderful idea! Not us though, them!

But to do that you need a competitive alternative. Hence my project and a 1000 more like it! Can't replace one food system without another better system to take it's place. Any producer who tries that will not survive. That takes infrastructure, so it can't happen overnight. Start with the ground up. Everything starts in the soil. Then you have a strong foundation to build on. Next comes genetics. To have good genetics you need to conserve the heirlooms! Hybrids are good, but the problem is that the vast majority of hybrids were developed for industry and not for things like taste. There is no reason at all hybrids can't be bred for that alternative infrastructure that values quality. That way when their foundation crumbles, there is an alternative to jump right in and take it's place. It's happening already. Expect it to grow. But you are right. The ideal thing we ask is for them to go out of business, but to do that we must first develop the alternative in a way that can survive and compete head to head.

[Keiththibodeaux]

All tomatoes are hybrids. That just about sums it up. The only distinction of heirlooms is how long they have been stable.

[Fusion_power]

I can't quite agree that all tomatoes are hybrids, but it is correct to say that all open pollinated tomatoes are derived from hybrids.

In nature, about 5% of tomato seed are cross-pollinated. Some wild species have the self-incompatibility gene which means that 100% of their seed are natural hybrids.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by gourmetgardener

I notice on these forums that there is a lot of talk about heirlooms. I have tried growing both, but I find that most heirlooms succumb to diseases readily, have poor fruit set, and poor keeping qualities.

I would like to know what keeps people interested in heirlooms.

Too get back to the original question.

I dont find any of the statements true about (most) open pollinated tomatoes be them heirloom or not.

And not all hybrids are bad either.
The trouble is the ones they breed to sell at the grocery store those are the tomatoes refer to when they say hybrid and it just isn't fare.

If you want to see a tomato go to mush fast grow Ceylon.

Worth

[snugglekitten]

Its a chicken or egg issue. Grow both, if you like a hybrid, grow out and stabilize. The process is without beginning or ending. Just go with the flow, and interact with it in a unique symbiosis that represents your personality and leaves a mark on the earth forever.

[bughunter99]

original poster never came back. Hmm

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

original poster never came back. Hmm

It happens sometimes.

Worth

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

Like others, I grow for my own use and taste is the most important factor. I don't have a lot of disease pressure where I live either. I do grow a few hybrids, like Sungold and Brandy Boy also.

Same here. Nothing to add

[Catherine+twin]

(Just in case the original poster is still reading the thread but not commenting,) I sort of understand his point. Almost all of the big-name heirlooms seem to be hot-climate long-season monsters that just won't grow on my mountain side. My nights are too cool and my season too short to get them to ripeness. If that was all that was available to the non-hybrid market, I would be buying hybrids, too.

However, TV isn't just about heirlooms. The tomato snobs here aren't just about heirlooms. They/we are all interested in open pollinated (OP) tomatoes so that we can save seeds this year and grow them again the next year. They/we are about breeding new backyard varieties (the whole Dwarf project) instead of making do with plants bred for the grocery and processing markets. However, those breeding projects are often carried out to the stable f6 or f7 generation so that when they are sold or traded to other growers they are those OP tomatoes that could become the heirlooms of the future. And the modern OPs often have the disease resistance that you see in the hybrids you like. In fact, there are even modern OPs made with crosses with old heirlooms that also include disease resistance.

My go-to tomatoes for the past 20 years are sure producers in my difficult climate, two with a Russian origin, one from Sweden, all originally commercial varieties. Because they are OP, I am able to save seed from one year to the next with very little genetic drift (although we now maintain two strains of Amber-Colored, one with plants that are about 18" tall, the other with plants about 24-30" tall). I also provide a few plants to neighbors and co-workers.

This year I am trying out some of the dwarf project varieties. I still have to choose for my short season, so my selection is limited, but I still have several. But, again, these aren't "heirlooms," they are new open pollinated creations.

Catherine

[Fred Hempel]

Stabilizing a hybrid will not necessarily get you what you liked in the hybrid.

Originally Posted by snugglekitten

Its a chicken or egg issue. Grow both, if you like a hybrid, grow out and stabilize. The process is without beginning or ending. Just go with the flow, and interact with it in a unique symbiosis that represents your personality and leaves a mark on the earth forever.