Pomodorino del Piennolo del Vesuvio (Spongillo)

[MrBig46]

No variety, which is called in Italy Pienollo del Vesuvio exist. It's just a general name for tomatoes (Principe Borghese, .........), which has more than 150 years grown around the volcano Vesuvius.
The "Tomato Piennolo Vesuvius PDO" brings together old local cultivars and biotypes united by morphological and qualitative characteristics more or less similar, the selection of which has been carefully decades by the farmers themselves. The names of these ecotypes are popular attributed by the local producers, such as "Fiaschella", "bulb", "Patanara", "Principe Borghese" and "Re Umberto", traditionally cultivated for centuries in the same area of origin.
All these tomatoes have a normal tomato leaves. All have a normal tomato leaves. Tomato called Pienollo del Vesuvio with potato leaf introduced here on Tomatoville member Fusion Power.

There is no problem to grow tomatoes that look like those exported to piennolo- pendulum. But their quality is not responsible for storing to those from the area around Vesuvius. I know from my own experience of five years.
Vladimír

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by cwavec

I would like to see a little clarification of what is meant, in relation to a tomato,
by the terms "long keeping" (ilex, #21), "long storage capabilities" (ilex, #21),
"longkeeper varieties" (Locomatto, #22).

I'm assuming to start with that this is not the same as some recently bred hybrids
created just to cater to the "retail long chain" (I know I have that incorrect but I
hope it's illustrative enough as I can't think right now of the actual words). In other
words, the post-harvest period that includes sorting, packing, shipping, shelving,
sale and finally consumption. At least one of these has been promoted by an
otherwise favorite seed producer as being capable of shipment from Almeria to
Moscow and return and arriving back home in the same condition as when it left.

It seems to me that this is not at all the same objective as one would seek when
engaging in the Piennolo process.I'm trying to understand a bit about how that
process works and what actually happens to the fruit when it is undertaken. Also,
what characteristics most contribute to its success.

On the contrary, I'm sure that some of these new hybrids are explicitly bred so that
they cannot ripen. They can get plenty red though.

Again, it seems that this is not a quality that the Pomodorino del Piennolo shares.
Would someone knowledgeable kindly comment on that?

I think I could do a fair job of answering your questions, but Ilex could give a superb answer so I'll let him answer,

You mentioned long keepers, these are the ones that Glen Drowns at Sandhill Preservation lists.

Giraffe,aka zhirav I think
Green Paint
Green Thumb
Old Fashioned Garden Peach
Ruby Treasures
Winterkeeper
Yellow Out Red In

Not a de colgar type listed.

And yes, there have been MANY hybrids bred so ripening is delayed, not stopped,since they breed in the following genes,nor,rin and alc, all of which delay ripening and it allows for transit of those pale pink yukky ones you see in the grocery stores usually in the winter, sent up from FL and Mexico primarily.

And while I'm at it,do you know about the F1's that are bred for gassibility? Meaning harvested green and put in huge chambers and gassed with ethylene gas,and that since it's that gas that is made as part of the normal ripening process.

All I want are some darn good tasting tomatoes to be grown here at home each summer.

Carolyn

[cwavec]

Carolyn, thanks for your response. I figured you would have a crack at it.

I am not familiar with the Sandhill list although you do mention "Not a
de colgar type listed."

That was actually my point, considering the thread this question is in.
Perhaps I wasn't really very clear but my real question is about what some
of these "long keepers" may have in common with the Piennolo varieties,
if anything. I'm assuming, and it seems supported by what I've seen, that
these must have some long keeping qualities in order to be subjected to
such a process. Do these qualities arise in the same fashion or another way?

I do not know about any "gassable" ones but have assumed that they
exist. I hope I never see any.

My other point concerned the "MANY hybrids bred so ripening is delayed" and
my hypothesis that this is NOT the same thing, which you appear to confirm.
Also, I really don't accept that in these ripening is merely delayed. Yes, I can
see how that breeding technique would presuppose a delay rather than the
finality I have suggested. However, when I grew an F1 (Rebelion) from our
favorite breeder that begins with a "V", and, although eye-poppingly red,
they were so bad that I had to get a 5 gallon bucket to haul them out into
the woods and dump them, and when I had to do that again almost a month
later and found the original lot still there and still in the same condition,
it looks pretty definitive to me. I allow you the prerogative to say "delayed"
but I will stick to "cannot".
However, that was not my original drift. WOuld you like to elaborate? Or
maybe another member can have a tilt at it.

[ilex]

Originally Posted by cwavec

I would like to see a little clarification of what is meant, in relation to a tomato,
by the terms "long keeping" (ilex, #21), "long storage capabilities" (ilex, #21),
"longkeeper varieties" (Locomatto, #22).

I'm assuming to start with that this is not the same as some recently bred hybrids
created just to cater to the "retail long chain" (I know I have that incorrect but I
hope it's illustrative enough as I can't think right now of the actual words). In other
words, the post-harvest period that includes sorting, packing, shipping, shelving,
sale and finally consumption. At least one of these has been promoted by an
otherwise favorite seed producer as being capable of shipment from Almeria to
Moscow and return and arriving back home in the same condition as when it left.

It seems to me that this is not at all the same objective as one would seek when
engaging in the Piennolo process.I'm trying to understand a bit about how that
process works and what actually happens to the fruit when it is undertaken. Also,
what characteristics most contribute to its success.

On the contrary, I'm sure that some of these new hybrids are explicitly bred so that
they cannot ripen. They can get plenty red though.

Again, it seems that this is not a quality that the Pomodorino del Piennolo shares.
Would someone knowledgeable kindly comment on that?

De colgar tomatoes have the "alc" gene, which together with smaller size and thick skin, make tomatoes that store 5-12 months at room temperature. They keep for months even if picked fully ripe. They are in no way similar to supermarket tomatoes. They will keep fully ripe on cold wet soil for weeks, even months. They do mature, and can be great off the vine (diversity is huge, so some are much better than others, specially when most are not selected for eating fresh in a salad).

I have quite a few tomatoes sitting around, picked late July, waiting me to take seeds out. And my storage conditions are far from ideal.

"alc" affects storage life, but also aroma, taste and color. They usually have an odd uneven color with shades. Plants heterozygous for alc, solve the color issue. Some new hybrids use it.

There is information on this gene on the net. For unknown reasons to me, "rin" and "nor" were more known and used, when it seems pretty clear that results were not ... well, they sold those tomatoes, so I guess they can call it a success as there was no need to solve or improve anything.

[cwavec]

Thanks, ilex, that helps a lot.

[Labradors2]

Ilex, that is fascinating.

I can't wait to grow this tomato and see how it tastes for myself, although I'm not wild about tomatoes with thick skins. I will make an exception since it stores so incredibly well

I wonder if we need to add some Sulphur to the potting mix to try to duplicate that volcanic essence? Keeping them dry farmed would be no problem with pots.

Linda

[MrBig46]

For me, the taste of stored Colgar disappointing as well Piennolo. I do not have the right conditions for their growth (weather).
Vladimír

[ilex]

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Ilex, that is fascinating.

I can't wait to grow this tomato and see how it tastes for myself, although I'm not wild about tomatoes with thick skins. I will make an exception since it stores so incredibly well

I wonder if we need to add some Sulphur to the potting mix to try to duplicate that volcanic essence? Keeping them dry farmed would be no problem with pots.

Linda

I doubt you need any special soil

[Wi-sunflower]

Several years ago I made a trade with an Italian that lives in England. She sent me several Italian varieties (no piennolo type) and a couple of Spanish varieties. One was just named De Colgar. I finally got to planting all of them this year. It will be interesting to see WHAT De Colgar I have.

I also have the Piennolo that was sent around by Fusion, tho it didn't grow well for me originally. I'm also growing that this year again. So many interesting varieties and characteristics to watch.

Not on the list of "long keepers" is the variety Red October. It was a commercial variety for a few years about 10 years ago. My Ukrainian worker at that time was excited about it since that is a popular Russian name referring to the 1917 revolution. I don't believe I have any seeds for that one any more tho.

Carol

[Labradors2]

I just checked out "volcanic soil" and was surprised to learn that it is high in nutrients and holds water well! It looked very dry in that video, so maybe it is like peat in that regard.....

Wi-Fi Sunflower, I love the name Red October! Reminds me of that movie staring Sean Connery! How off-topic can I go????

Linda

[ilex]

What I saw in the video is that the area is humid by my standard per the trees and plants that grew around. I wouldn't dream of growing those trees here without lots of irrigation.

[cwavec]

I've also looked at a little on these soils. It seems the water-holding capacity
is a little bit of a "trick".

One explanation has it something like rice krispies. When the fluid molten
rock is expelled, it goes from being under extreme pressure to being under
no pressure. Consequently, it suddenly expands and takes on a sponge-like,
porous character. This material can hold a lot of water that it will pick up
from underground flows. But it is deep.

Looking at the consistency of the soil being tilled in the above videos, you can
see that this surface soil is not holding any water, even if it could.

So, I'm hypothesizing that the plants must be adapted to sending deep
roots to tap the massive amounts of water farther underground. This
brings us to the idea of growing these in containers. I don't think it would
be feasible to duplicate such a structure. Probably one would have to rely
on a more or less normal container soil. Soggy, I guess wouldn't do it.
Do whatever amendments would be needed (sand?) to make it very
well-draining and plan to water frequently.

That's my guess. Anybody want to add to it?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Several years ago I made a trade with an Italian that lives in England. She sent me several Italian varieties (no piennolo type) and a couple of Spanish varieties. One was just named De Colgar. I finally got to planting all of them this year. It will be interesting to see WHAT De Colgar I have.

I also have the Piennolo that was sent around by Fusion, tho it didn't grow well for me originally. I'm also growing that this year again. So many interesting varieties and characteristics to watch.

Not on the list of "long keepers" is the variety Red October. It was a commercial variety for a few years about 10 years ago. My Ukrainian worker at that time was excited about it since that is a popular Russian name referring to the 1917 revolution. I don't believe I have any seeds for that one any more tho.

Carol

Carol, sorry to tell you but with something just named de Colgar since there are many of them and they can be very different.

You used to be a listed SSE member but checking I see you aren't any more, and I ask since if you were you could see how many different ones that Ilex lists in the current 2017 SSE Yearbook

As for Red October, I remember that one as well,went looking,Tania doesn't list it and now I know why.

I did a Google search and this is what I came up with

https://www.google.com/search?q=red+...&bih=790&dpr=1

I couldn't tell from the listings if it's still being sold but yes,an F1 hybrid and with few exceptions Tania doesn't list any hybrids.

Carolyn

[ilex]

Dry farming is an art, were you basically store water in the soil and prevent losing it. Loose soil in the surface prevents water from being lost through capillarity action.

Just checked some climatic data from the area ... 877 mm avg per year. That's double what we get here, and it seems they get rain all winter. We get most in October and then ... you never know. I'm sure they can dry farm without many problems.

[Labradors2]

Originally Posted by ilex

Dry farming is an art, were you basically store water in the soil and prevent losing it. Loose soil in the surface prevents water from being lost through capillarity action.

Just checked some climatic data from the area ... 877 mm avg per year. That's double what we get here, and it seems they get rain all winter. We get most in October and then ... you never know. I'm sure they can dry farm without many problems.

Wow! So there you have it. As cwavec says, dry farming causes deep roots and the plants survive without being swamped with water, but they do have access to water!

As Ilex noticed, the trees and shrubs in the vicinity like lots of water, so it would be easy to be led astray by seeing the very dry soil in the video and thinking that the plants needed to be dry.

I dry farm here some summers as I use black plastic on top of the soil, and I don't usually give extra water all summer. The difference here is that once the roots get beyond the 6" of aged manure, they hit CLAY, which probably retains water in most years. Last year we had a drought and I did give some supplemental water.

Think I will just grow my Piennolo in pots, in good potting mix, just like I do with the other compact varieties.......

Linda