'Hearty' Indian Stripe Hearts???

[MarinaRussian]

Will do, Carolyn. When do you need them by?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

Will do, Carolyn. When do you need them by?

Any time this Fall would be fine Marina.

I know at one time you had my home address but if you don't have it any longer just e-mail me and I'll send it right back.

It will be nice to have seeds from both Marsha AND you to be grown out perhaps by two different seed producers growing both for comparisons.

I'l looking forward to it, yes I am.

And I'm now going to update all of you about now knowing who did the seed production for IS Heart and how I found out.

Next post coming up.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

I was getting a bit concerned as to where my WORD doc was for 2014, which is the template I intended to use, deleting varieties I didn't have enough seeds to reoffer and adding the new ones.

So I clicked on Word on my tabletop and it said something like, well I don't remember exactly, but I know I gulped.

So I went to my Document Library, the list is VERY long, looking there and I knew it would read something like Tville 2012 since as I said I use the same template each year, just updating.

As I was going through the list I saw INDIAN STRIPE HEART. Whoa. I opened it and there was a picture of some gorgeous looking hearts, dated 2013 , and I knew ASAP who sent me that picture.

The hand and arm in the picture was very hairy, a man,point one, and then I looked at the label being shown and it said Indian Stripe and next toit he had drawn a heart.

The Only person I know who does that is Shoe in NC who has been one of my best seed producers for maybe 10 years now and sends me pictures if he's not sure of a variety. So it was his seeds i distributed from my seed offer

The germination was low, we already knww that and I'm remembering something shoe said I don't remember the year, that he would do his fermentations in his office where there was air conditioning rather than outside.

So some got hearts and some did not and some got plants with fruits that were a different color.

The seeds I sent to Shoe were seeds I saved from the plant that Craig L sent me, his seeds apparently from Bluey.

Two possibilities. Accidental crossing here in my back yard or crossing in Shoe's field.

The good news being as I said in my above post to Marina,I'll now have seeds for the heart version from both Marsha and her.

And yes, I did find my Tville WORD doc labelled 20i2 and when I opened it it was indeed the 2014 one I needed.

But I have so much work to do in the back room as to inventorying seeds, a BIG job, before I even think about working with that WORD doc, and when I get to that I sweat blood and with a few prayers, attempt to transfer it to Tville.

I did find another data book yesterday, but it was from 92, 93, 94 and what a trip down memory lane. Triangulaire? Duck Clucker?(Ido knowwhere that came from, same source as Turkey Chomp) but what interested me the most was the year I was collaborating with the Cornell Extension Service.

The head forthe 5 counties around Albany, NY was a woman who knew lots about tomatoes. She had learned from Dr, Tom Zitter, the tomato infectious specialist at Cornell about diseases and taught me.

They wanted me to put out lots of my Op's as well as some hybrids and assess infections and grade them. That data book is still stained green b'c I not only did that, but also noted, for each variety, first blossom, first fruit set, firtripe fruits, etc.

She had two volunteer interns who would accompany her to my tomato field about every two weeks and we would walk down the rows and Iwould ask questions if I wasn't sure about the foliage infections, but we also have some Verticillium in my area aswell. She also confirmed my ID's and was teaching the interns at the same time.

Then I had listed and checked off the varieties i'd saved seed from and there were 256 of them. At that time I was also SSE listing several hundreds of varieties. Each year some regrows for seed and usually lots of new ones.

Ah memories, when good, very very good, but when bad, just horrible.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Any time this Fall would be fine Marina . . . It will be nice to have seeds from both Marsha AND you to be grown out perhaps by two different seed producers growing both for comparisons. . . I'l looking forward to it, yes I am. . . .

Carolyn, I think it is an excellent idea, if your producers are willing, to grow out seed from both Marina and from the line descended from the plant I grew from your 2013 seed offer and see where and whether they see consistent Indian Stripe hearts. If you get enough seed from Marina to make it practical, it might also be good if Marsha and I were able to grow out a few plants of Marina's seed in 2016, also, to see how it compares with the line we've been growing.

I don't want to be a Bird Of Gloom about this . . . and I really do think the hearts Marsha saw in her "third round of ISH fruit from around February to April", and those hearts Marina reported, are very promising . . . there sure seems to be Indian Stripe heart potential there . . . but I haven't seen more than a hint of it in the plants I've grown, and neither had Marsha according to her observations in late January. (see link in post #19)

Marsha said that third round heart producing plant was from the seed I sent her in early 2014, but we still don't know whether it was a plant that had been producing hints of hearts earlier, that went into 'heart mode' . . . possibly in response to hot weather, or whether it was a new plant, grown late, that proved to be 'hearty'. And we don't know whether Marsha saved seed from those heart tomatoes, or at least from that plant, or if she knows which batch of the seed I sent her it was from . . . but, as yet, this seed line seems only to show some heart potential rather than to be a consistent heart producer.

Marina's seed may chug out hearts reliably or perhaps with environmental changes there are variations there, too.

Marsha's observation does suggest that it would be worth watching for possible temperature related differences in 'heartiness' of production.

That the plant that had the third round heartish episode shared an earthbox with a PL plant might compromise seeds saved from it, if any . . . but then perhaps a PL IS heart wouldn't be a bad thing.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, with IS Heart, too . . . we seem to have gotten more promising data in the last couple of days than in the last couple of years of chirping for it . . . but I don't think that there is yet evidence of a reliable IS Heart producer, except possibly Marina's . . . just evidence that there is good hope for one.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Carolyn, I think I have enough ISH seeds that I can send you some, but I'll have to check to be sure. If I have enough (12-15) do you want some?

Marsha, as I said in anearlier thread I do, and you are saying you MAY have 12-15 seeds.

That would be enough for me if I'm going to ask two of my seed producers to grow both yours and Marina's, but not enough for JLJ, as I see it, for him to also grow from your seeds. The # of seeds I send to my seed producers varies a lot in terms of how many seeds I'm sent. From Reinhard and Andrey I usually get 10 seeds for each variety, and if it's a bust for many reasons and I send only 5 seed each to a seed producer, then I have but 5 seeds left to get it going.

And that happened last year with Emerald Pear and two more and a whole bunch that one of my other seed producers was sent, she had first choice last year and had some of the best, she disappeared and I was left with darn few seeds to send out this year for regrow, And just this week one of my seed producers in the midwest said it had been raining constantly for about three weeks and he said it looks like he's going to lose everything, both mine and his. And he had first choice this past Spring and IMO took some of the best ones, and LOTS of them and that's b'c my seed producers who are SSE members can then SSE list them since I no longer am a listed SSE member, by choice.

Marina and I have not yet discussed how many seeds she has to share since I told her I don't need them until this Fall and I imagine these are saved seeds she got from my initial seed offer , grew the plants and saved the IS Heart.

So we shall see.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

I searched for pictures, but I must have forgotten to get some.
They were from a plant grown directly from your seeds. Mine looked exactly like Marina's bottom one in the photo. For sure they were heart shaped. We do start to get warm in February. The plant shared the same Earthbox with ISPL, and the shape comparison was made easily.
In my case, it's if my black Lab mix doesn't get em!

Originally Posted by JLJ_

That is great!

Hopefully you saved lots of seeds from those fruit? You asked me what you could send me back in exchange for the seeds I sent you . . . some of those seeds would be good.

From your earlier observations the hearty look was less apparent in your first two rounds . . . do you know what batch of seeds the performing plant came from?

Was the 'third round' heart producer a different plant, or did it just have to warm up with two earlier production periods before it got serious about producing hearts?

Marsha, it looks to me as if you may have been placed in an awkward position.

I think it is clear, but what I am interested in is some seeds from the fruit of the 'hearty' plant . . . particularly from the hearty fruit itself, if you saved a bunch, to pursue our quest to elicit hearts from that line.

If you only have 12-15 spare seeds, from whatever plant, and Carolyn would like them, by all means let her have them.

Let me know your situation, though, if your supply is that low. If you know the batch number from which the seed for the 'hearty' plant came, and don't have seeds for it, I probably have some I could send you to try again when your fall season begins. I noticed a clear decline in germination this spring, though, so keeping fresh seeds may be important with this plant. Or it might have been just coincidence.

I do have some out this summer, and might have some fresh seeds by season's end, but as my season is possibly not long enough to get the plants to express their 'heartiness', it's unlikely, though possible, that they will manifest their hearty tendencies here. I am thinking that, given the results you saw, I may tent them to give them as warm a season as I can, without, hopefully, cooking them.

And if you have a low seed supply, and know the batch number that the hearty plant came from, I probably have some extra seeds from the same tomato that produced your hearts that Carolyn could have -- though, as I said, I'm wary about their germination rate -- fresh proven seed would certainly give her producers a better shot at seeing results of some kind.

With your warm winter growing season you probably have the best shot at that, with the tomato loving lab's permission.

Let me know what your seed situation is.

[carolyn137]

I've spent the whole morning trying to get here to post the following, which just occurred to me last night.

Marsha, you said in your post above that you might possibly have 12 to 15 seeds LEFT. So what happed to the rest of your seeds?

I know you were making a seed offer here and also elsewhere, I didn't read either one, and I remember b'c you were encouraging me to make my offer elsewhere as well and I told you I just couldn't handle two sites.

So, were your ISHeart seeds in your offer and/or did you send some out privately?

If so then there could be quite a few folks already growing out plants from the seeds you already distributed, and if you know who those folks are, then you could get feedback,perhaps some pictures, and share with us here. Right?

I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier when you said SEEDS LEFT/

Carolyn, going absolutely nuts this AM with so many things on her plate, well, the actual first plate was hash and eggs over light that Martha prepared for her.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I've spent the whole morning trying to get here to post the following, which just occurred to me last night.

Marsha, you said in your post above that you might possibly have 12 to 15 seeds LEFT. So what happed to the rest of your seeds?

I know you were making a seed offer here and also elsewhere, I didn't read either one, and I remember b'c you were encouraging me to make my offer elsewhere as well and I told you I just couldn't handle two sites.

So, were your ISHeart seeds in your offer and/or did you send some out privately?

If so then there could be quite a few folks already growing out plants from the seeds you already distributed, and if you know who those folks are, then you could get feedback,perhaps some pictures, and share with us here. Right?

I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier when you said SEEDS LEFT/

Carolyn, going absolutely nuts this AM with so many things on her plate, well, the actual first plate was hash and eggs over light that Martha prepared for her.

JLJ, and Carolyn, I have exactly 21 seeds left, most others given out to people in my seed offer, and some to a friend for other usage which I shall not disclose here. JLJ, these seeds were not bagged, but I simply have never had a bee cross from any seeds I have ever harvested. We don't have much Hallictidae activity in the winter, and virtually zero bumble bees, I am not in the least worried about a bee cross. Also, the ISH that I planted grew for 9 months, IT CAME FROM YOUR SEEDS. it was NOT a subsequent growout. I took it from the seeds you reported had the best germination, but can't recall which batch.

Carolyn, I can spare 10 seeds only, what should I do? Give you 5 and JLZ 5? I do plan to grow them again this season, will sow seeds in August.

Maybe you can appeal to the others here who got seeds from me. If I had known, I would've kept more seeds!

Also, I am sorry, but I failed to keep a record of who I sent each variety to, because it never occured to me, but they know who they are, maybe they will step up.

JLJ, since the plant eventually did produce ALL blunt heart shaped fruit, all the seeds would have the same genetics, regardless of whether they showed a heart phenotype in the earlier cooler weather fruit, right? ( but any way, I saved them only from the heart shaped ones)!

I wont get the seeds out for a few days, I have a lot going on right now. I can and will get you both lots more seeds by February if all goes well growing them again, which should be time enough to use them, if you both wish to wait.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

JLJ, and Carolyn, I have exactly 21 seeds left, most others given out to people in my seed offer, and some to a friend for other usage which I shall not disclose here. JLJ, these seeds were not bagged, but I simply have never had a bee cross from any seeds I have ever harvested. We don't have much Hallictidae activity in the winter, and virtually zero bumble bees, I am not in the least worried about a bee cross. Also, the ISH that I planted grew for 9 months, IT CAME FROM YOUR SEEDS. it was NOT a subsequent growout. I took it from the seeds you reported had the best germination, but can't recall which batch.

Carolyn, I can spare 10 seeds only, what should I do? Give you 5 and JLZ 5? I do plan to grow them again this season, will sow seeds in August.

Maybe you can appeal to the others here who got seeds from me. If I had known, I would've kept more seeds!

Also, I am sorry, but I failed to keep a record of who I sent each variety to, because it never occured to me, but they know who they are, maybe they will step up.

JLJ, since the plant eventually did produce ALL blunt heart shaped fruit, all the seeds would have the same genetics, regardless of whether they showed a heart phenotype in the earlier cooler weather fruit, right? ( but any way, I saved them only from the heart shaped ones)!

I wont get the seeds out for a few days, I have a lot going on right now. I can and will get you both lots more seeds by February if all goes well growing them again, which should be time enough to use them, if you both wish to wait.

I'm really running, Marsha . . . or more accurately hobbling quickly :\ . . . but I did understand when you said earlier that the hearty tomato plant came from the seeds I'd sent, that's why I asked about batch number. Each batch was seeds from a single tomato.


I'll check later, I have a record of the seeds I sent you and perhaps I can tell what batch it was from the one with highest germination . . . if so, I could send you (and Carolyn if she wants them) some seeds from the same tomato that produced your 'hearty' plant -- should be "identical twins" to that seed . . . sorta, kinda, probably.

Let me know, as I'm planning to go to the post office in the next couple of days (they don't deliver mail, here . . . have to saddle up the pack mule and journey down the mountain past the bears and lions and moose to the post office to get mail . . . (figurative pack mule . . . other critters real,though not as common as a few years pack . . . too many bipeds around) and I'll try to get seed out then if you want/need it.

I've had a last bunch of Selbo seeds tested and ready to ship to Carolyn for a month or so, anyway, started the testing when she said she didn't think she needed them, but might, just haven't had time to get them packaged for hopefully safe travel.

If I have an idea how many seeds either or both of you would want, I'll try to send some more than that . . . as I told you I noticed reduced germination in those seeds this spring . . . perhaps a sad indicator of heartiness, or perhaps just one of those things. They germinated great last year.

If I understand correctly, from your January and then your later observations, the seeds grew for around five months, with just some hearty indications, then got into hearts-only mode the last four months or so that they produced?

Hope this is intelligible, really do have to hop swiftly and tend to some things.

[JLJ_]

OK, 2:30 am here, but I thought I'd better get this done or it would still be on the "to do" list in 2029.

Marsha, I believe that you grew the hearty plant from Batch #1 seeds I sent you.

(1) You said that you had used the batch marked with best germination, and Batch #1 was that, and it was still the best this year -- declining, but still above 50%.

(2) I had batch #1 marked as coming from the tomato that was the most heart shaped of the 2013 production, and it seems likely that you would have used that seed first.

If you still have the seeds I sent you in their batch envelopes, you might be able to tell what batch you used to grow the 'hearty' plant by checking the contents, if you only used from one envelope -- I show that in early 2014 I sent you about ten seeds of each batch.

Based on the above, I've sent Carolyn 30+ 2013 batch #1 Indian Stripe Heart? seeds, which should be from the same tomato as the seed that grew your "hearty" plant -- most likely should be its "identical twin".

Even if you did plant seeds from a different batch, they were all from the same plant -- but as above, batch #1 seems by far the most likely to be what you used.

As you said you don't have many seeds, I've also sent you another 15 from batch #1. You will probably have enough plants from the seeds you are saving to plant, but just in case of unexpected last minute problems, the "probably identical twin" batch #1 seeds would give you some backup.

If you have ten extra seeds from the "hearty" tomatoes, why don't you send Carolyn 6 and me 4. That would give her the opportunity to send three next spring to each of two producers, even if no more appeared -- plus she'll have 30+ "twin of the seed that produced your hearty plant" seeds.

If it works out that your wintertime production goes well, and the plants from this year's hearty plant produce hearts, you may have even better seeds to send Carolyn early in the year, before she has to get seeds to her producers, and it's *possible* that I might see some hearty results this summer from the batch #1 (or other batch) plants in the garden here.

But as we know, all sorts of things can happen to gardens and seed stores and people and communication -- seems to me that it's the best idea to have the best chance heart producers in place -- or rather in several places -- ready to go next season, and then to improve on that in early 2016, if we can.

So with the above mentioned mailings, I've done the best I can at the moment toward that goal.

And in the other direction, when Carolyn gets seed from Marina, and sets aside what she needs for her producers, if she has enough to send us a few seeds to grow alongside this 'hopeful IS heart" line for comparison, that would be good.

I still think that the line we're working with is more IS with hearty tendencies than a reliable IS heart -- and I wonder about the role of heat in producing its hearts -- but if it gets grown in at least four places -- by us two and by Carolyn's two producers, we'll know more, one way or the other, than we do now -- especially if it turns out to be possible for Marina's seed to be grown in the same four places for comparison.

And regarding Carolyn's suggestion that you seek feedback from those who got seed from your offer, might it be an idea for you to start a 'General Discussion' "Ginger2778 seed offer feedback" thread, not as a requirement for anyone, but just as a place to ask for and attract feedback on seed you sent out? Might be more hassle than you want to deal with, but it's a thought, anyway.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

. . . JLJ, since the plant eventually did produce ALL blunt heart shaped fruit, all the seeds would have the same genetics, regardless of whether they showed a heart phenotype in the earlier cooler weather fruit, right? ( but any way, I saved them only from the heart shaped ones) . . .

I would have thought what you suggest was probably mostly true, but particularly relevant in this situation was Carolyn's remark in post #20

"Sometimes varieties that do not form hearts, do so when it's been said that there's sustained high heat. But sometimes when situations like this appear, meaning OM Heart, the saved seeds from the heart variants are stable."

So perhaps this IS heart-potential line will only show heart shapes with very warm temps at a significant time -- fruit set, perhaps? -- or perhaps, even if the heart shapes are heat induced, seeds from those heat induced hearts will be 'heartier" -- or perhaps something else is involved.

That's one reason it would be good to grow several comparisons of this line and Marina's in the same gardens, with gardens in different environments -- might not lead to any real conclusions, but we'd probably know more than we do now.

Almost 4am now and I should be up and busy in an hour or so -- and can't get up until I get down. I may not be around for a bit as things are hectic here, but I think I've done about all I can toward our objectives for the moment.

Except perhaps to keep the IS heart? plants here as happy as possible so hopefully they can produce some fruit before it starts snowing again.

Did your consistent 'hearty" fruit, when it did appear, look heart shaped when it was small, or did that just become apparent as it matured?

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Did your consistent 'hearty" fruit, when it did appear, look heart shaped when it was small, or did that just become apparent as it matured?

They were blunt hearts immediately from when first forming.

I think with 11 of my own seeds, I probably will get a plant or 2, so you really don't need to mail me any more, but indeed, very kind of you. I will send you 5 seeds and Carolyn 10 seeds. They are very fresh of course!

I probably will not start a feedback thread, my motivations were different, and I don't want people to feel pressured, just to get joy from growing new varieties.

I have room for only 1 ISH plant, because I have obligated myself to a few stabilizing lines projects, but I will grow it and save seeds.

[carolyn137]

I've tried twice this AM to respond and it was a no go for me to transfer two links here to respond in a light hearted manner, hopefully.

The first was a music vid of Ron Moody, as Fagin singing " I'm Reviewing the situation", from the movieOliver, which I am, and the seond one was also Ron Moody singing " I'll be Back soon", which I will after I've reviewed the situation, which has been a bit difficult for me to do.

I am in contact with Marina and know how many seeds she has.

JLJ, your last e-mail to me was this past April about the Selbo's Ribbed Red and in an earlier group e-mail with the three of you who were in on that project I noted that I had gotten seeds back from all three of you, but if you think your more recent ones are better than what you sent originally, no harm in sending them You also asked for seeds of Iva's Red Berry and I don't remember sending them, but still could if you want me to. It was such a surprise to see Mike Selbo himself posting here, I didn't recognize him at first until he put up a picture that showed the fruits and both of us recognized them ASAP.

They are so unique that I hope there will be some that would want to include them in a breeding project. I saved the original thread from GW but I doubt it will even work now that Houzz has taken over, since other threads I saved from GW are all messed up as well.

JLJ, I didn't go back and read your latest post but I think you already said you sent me some seeds for IS Heart that would be a sister line to what you sent Marsha.

And Marsha, do I remember you saying you were going to send some seeds to me as well? Anything sent to me would be for seed production for next summer, although Marina appears to have enough seeds that could be offered in my 2016 offer in january when Shawn takes over for me as to the mechanics, but I'll still be the one to try and find varieties new to all or most.

So the above is where I am right now, without my being specific as to what has concerned me about this whole situation.

Carolyn, and lots of time has passed since I started this thread b'c Martha came to prepare my food for the day and we talked about several other things including her current med problems.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I've tried twice this AM to respond and it was a no go for me to transfer two links here to respond in a light hearted manner, hopefully.

The first was a music vid of Ron Moody, as Fagin singing " I'm Reviewing the situation", from the movieOliver, which I am, and the seond one was also Ron Moody singing " I'll be Back soon", which I will after I've reviewed the situation, which has been a bit difficult for me to do.

I am in contact with Marina and know how many seeds she has.

JLJ, your last e-mail to me was this past April about the Selbo's Ribbed Red and in an earlier group e-mail with the three of you who were in on that project I noted that I had gotten seeds back from all three of you, but if you think your more recent ones are better than what you sent originally, no harm in sending them You also asked for seeds of Iva's Red Berry and I don't remember sending them, but still could if you want me to. It was such a surprise to see Mike Selbo himself posting here, I didn't recognize him at first until he put up a picture that showed the fruits and both of us recognized them ASAP.

They are so unique that I hope there will be some that would want to include them in a breeding project. I saved the original thread from GW but I doubt it will even work now that Houzz has taken over, since other threads I saved from GW are all messed up as well.

JLJ, I didn't go back and read your latest post but I think you already said you sent me some seeds for IS Heart that would be a sister line to what you sent Marsha.

And Marsha, do I remember you saying you were going to send some seeds to me as well? Anything sent to me would be for seed production for next summer, although Marina appears to have enough seeds that could be offered in my 2016 offer in january when Shawn takes over for me as to the mechanics, but I'll still be the one to try and find varieties new to all or most.

So the above is where I am right now, without my being specific as to what has concerned me about this whole situation.

Carolyn, and lots of time has passed since I started this thread b'c Martha came to prepare my food for the day and we talked about several other things including her current med problems.

Carolyn, very happy to send you some seeds. As I posted previously and just right above, I only have 21 seeds total, that's all I kept. I would like to keep some for myself, as I intend to grow it out again this upcoming season. JLJ has requested 4 but I want to send at least 5, he was my original supplier. I could send you 8, that will leave me with 8 to try for germination. Can that work for you? I wish I held onto more now, but alas, nothing can be done about it.

[ginger2778]

Carolyn, as stated in a prev post in this thread, since I am starting my seeds in August, I should have fruit to get fresh seeds from by January or early February, which also will be time enough for you to get them to your seed producers, indeed, I could just go ahead and be the seed producer for these for you. No matter what they wont be ready for the January seed offer if you habe one yet, but could be readily available for the next one.