Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[surf4grrl]

So, I did try - to no avail - to get somewhere with this in 2011 - decide for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it with an apology. So far, every breeder I've spoken to has agreed with me.

[b54red]

Carolyn I think I just lucked out with the Indian Stripe PL. I have no idea if this new one I'm trying will work out. It may be that the rootstock experiment will end it for me if it doen't turn out to have the fusarium resistance I'm looking for. What gives me high hopes is the fact that for two years it has grown in my worst bed while all other tomatoes including fusarium resistant hybrids have failed. I'm not really interested in continuing it if it doesn't show the resistance I need. If it does work out I'll start a new thread on it.

I can tell you with fair certainty that Indian Stripe PL does not have as much fusarium resistance as the regular leaf Indian Stripe. I have been growing it regularly since finding it and invariably it falls to fusarium faster than the regular leaf version. It could just be luck but with my soil so infested with fusarium it is a good test site for resistance. I set out pairs next to each other in various locations throughout my garden and the results seem fairly conclusive.

[doublehelix]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

So, I did try - to no avail - to get somewhere with this in 2011 - decide for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it with an apology. So far, every breeder I've spoken to has agreed with me.

Bravo Sur4grrl.

I too was dismissed over that tomato and the one called Black Anna, now called Darth Mater.

If someone started passing around seeds from an old heirloom claiming they had been growing it for more than a decade and everyone started getting different tomatoes, what would you think?

What if you saw two fruit colors, four fruit shapes, three different growth habits and several fruit sizes? I know what I would think. I would think they were lying about how long they have been growing that tomato.

I would also conclude that it was not a long lost heirloom but in fact a segregating hybrid grow out. I know that if I found an old heirloom growing on an abandoned farm I would not wait a decade to mention it. Would you?

But every single one of Dean's followers, including Bill, just keeps going right along with the Sweet Beverley story, supporting and defending what is to any rational person a total fabrication.

You and I were dismissed because that is not a forum, it is a cult.

Dean uses the oldest manipulation tool in the book. The technique has been used for generations by Pedophiles and Cult leaders.

"I am giving you something special", "I am telling you something secret", "you are part of the inner circle".

They take things from us breeders and then give them away to unsuspecting people recruited to join their forum. I am sure if anyone over there would reflect on their interactions with the group leaders will see this to be true.

Silly isn't it?

[surf4grrl]

I have my own thoughts on the personal character and integrity of some individuals - and if you know me, you know what they are.

I'm not here to talk about anyone's personal failings - no matter how glaring I feel them to be and how they have affected me as someone who believed what I was told. Leave that for other forums.

My problem is with intentional misrepresentation to the average gardener or consumer all the while claiming to better the profession. To proclaim to be one of the best...

How about starting with the truth, instead of mythology?

Ask a farmer who grows professionally if they can hand irrigate 10,000+ tomatoes using a garden hose "the old fashioned way". Yeah, that was stated in 2011 too.

LOL

I don't care about anyone's personal idiosyncrasies or failings - and I certainly don't want to assassinate anyone's character either.

But to call people liars when they observe and measure identifiable results from seed they received is wrong. Why not just say its an unstabilized cross - I still would have grown it - now I won't grow anything I got from there because it's bogus to me. I never could get a straight story.

I'm sick of the lies, ego, and bravado surrounding tomatoes - all to what - to have the most? To be the coolest? I dunno, it escapes me, high school has long passed me by.

Sweet Beverley is a mutation? Yeah, of the truth.

Tell me those variants in that photo are a mutation with the very first time I grew it out with the seeds I had. Really?

[roper2008]

I only grew one sweet beverley. Wasn't impressed, so it's
not on my 2013 grow list.

[The Future]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I too am not convinced this is entirely bad. There are lots of folks who love to tinker with genetics. With that said, what I foresee is a huge number of mediocre "varieties" being dumped onto the market over the next 5 years. The result will be cream rising to the top but this will take a number of years to sort out.

On a different note, using dna testing to stabilize desirable traits is close to being available to the average grower. This would enable anyone to stabilize a variety in short order while retaining desirable traits. In other words, super tomatoes are more and more feasible.

DarJones

DNA testing available to the average grower? Do tell more.

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I too am not convinced this is entirely bad. There are lots of folks who love to tinker with genetics. With that said, what I foresee is a huge number of mediocre "varieties" being dumped onto the market over the next 5 years. The result will be cream rising to the top but this will take a number of years to sort out.

DarJones

You were convinced enough to question their motives last November at the site where this all originates. The end result was Dean locking your thread and "overruling" your concerns, thereby ending any further discussion or questions.

I wonder why he did that? Wait... no I don't. I know precisely why.

Advertising and selling unstable, crossed tomato seeds as stable varieties is a deceptive and fraudulent business practice. This is the work of a con artist, playing unsuspecting gardeners for a sucker.
There's no gray area here, despite how anyone may try to spin it.
The first and last posts of the thread are below.

[Mischka]

Here's another example of unstable hybrids being masqueraded as stable varieties at Marianna's Heirloom Seeds. This one is named "MoCross" (Mozark x Sioux) and was crossed by Bill Jeffers, although the description at Marianna's omits this information and insinuates otherwise.

Bill states in a post dated 2/2012, (see below) that this cross is at F2 and unstable, yet it's now being sold at Marianna's for 2013 as fully stabilized. Their description that the seeds produce "fully-determinate, semi-determinate or semi-indeterminate hotset vines" is both laughable and a red warning flag.

[travis]

Allow me to explain a bit ...

The photo in the link provided by Mischka shows a tomato picked in 2011 off an F2 MoCross vine. Therefore the seeds taken from that F2 fruit are F3 seeds. I grew out those F3 seeds in 2012, selected individual vines from that grow-out, and saved the resulting F4 seeds according to selected plant and fruit characteristics. [After The Future, in Post #53, pointed out the error, I corrected the filial generations as shown above in red.]

The F3 seed taken from the 2011, F2 tomato was sold in 2012, and again this year, as MOX311S (MoCross, F3, 2011 production year, from a semi-indeterminate vine) ... that's what the coded designation indicates. As with the same batch of F3 seeds which I grew-out in 2012, I expect others to see what I saw ... a continuation of segregation and recombination of both semi-inderminate (a classification accepted by tomato breeders) and "semi-indeterminate" vines, a classifiction that I explain in a message in the link provided by Mischka.

If there is any question regarding what I mean by "semi-indeterminate," you may contact me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com, and I will be glad to discuss it further via email.

And yes, I have closely observed, recorded, and discussed the extent of hotset capability of MoCross generally, and specifically regarding the selected lines I have been working with since I made the original cross several years ago.

Speaking of the original cross, I made that cross using Mozark seeds I received from the University of Missouri, Columbia, from Dr. Trinklein. Mozark is a discontinued seed line from Mizzou. It was used to breed several hybrids that were popular in the late 1960s and 1970s, among them Avalanche (Mozark x Glamour), and MoCross Surprise (Mozark x Sioux).

The cross I made, and which I call MoCross, is the replication of MoCross Surprise, I just left off the "Surprise" half of the name, because I am not distributing the F1 seeds, only F2, F3, F4, etc.

I do retain several F1 seeds for future F2 seed production. I have distributed, and intend to continue distributing F2 MoCross seeds, whether for trade, for sale, or for free, so that others can grow them out and experience what I have enjoyed ... selecting the various expressions of vine growth habit, including determinate, semi-determinate, and semi-indeterminate, all of which have their individual characteristics, qualities, benefits, and uses. Again, if anyone is interested in details of what I just said, you may contact me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com for more discussion.

As to the fruit, I have never gotten anything from MoCross, regardless of the filial generation, including the F1, where the fruit was anything but, on average, baseball size, slightly flat-round tomatoes with slightly ruffled shoulders. Additionally, the tomatoes seldom crack or split, and the flavor is well above average, tending toward delicious, acid-leaning, slicer/canners.

I have photos of several generations beginning with the F1 to show what I am speaking about.

With regard to MoCross Elgin, it's fully determinate, and I expect it to remain fully stable for fully determinate, as it has show such for the past two grow-outs. MoCross Elgin is the result of F2 seeds I sent to Susan Anderson in Elgin, Texas. She grew the F2 seeds, and sent me back the determinate selection. I can check my records, but I think she sent me back seeds two times, but I cannot swear they were product of two separate growth seasons, so I will not claim they were anything beyond F3 seeds that Susan sent back. I grew them in 2012, and collected F4 seeds from the most productive single vine which put out 42 or 43 baseball size, red, crack free tomatoes pretty much ripening all at the same time.

Why do I claim hotset? Because for the past two years, all the MoCross vines from which I have saved seeds for distribution have set fruit in daytime temperatures from 93 to 98* Fahrenheit. I have recorded fruit set carefully, and kept records of the daytime temps in the 10 days preceeding confirmation of fruit set. I confirmed the fruit set with photographs of the tiny, green ova, and kept written records of my methods.

I take this hotset development very seriously, and don't make any claims frivolously or with the intent to deceive. In addition to Mozark x Sioux, I have made crosses of (Mozark x Sioux) x Neptune, (Mozark x Sioux) x Monte Verde, and Monte Verde x Neptune. I also maintain varieties and lines from NCSU, IFAS, and other sources in a private program to develop hotset and high beta carotene, high lycopene lines for future release.

I do not think anything I have said anywhere online, or anything that I have submitted in writing to be published as a description or explanation at the seed sales site that Mischka linked in his post is misleading as to the degree of stability of the seeds I have offered for trade, for sale, or for free.

If there is any misunderstanding by anyone, or if anyone feels that anything I have said or done is misleading or misrepresenting as to the stability or characteristics of the seeds or the plants resulting from the seeds that came from me, then please let me know by email, at tomatohead48@hotmail.com, and I will do all in my power to correct the misunderstanding or perceived misrepresentation.

I intend to continue with my private tomato crossing and selection. And whether or where the resulting germplasm is distributed, I intend to continue distributing it in unstable, intermediately stable, and fully stable condition. I feel what I am doing is worthy and that many people have enjoyed growing my seeds. What I am doing really is no different that what Tom Wagner is doing with the sales and distribution of his unstable lines of anthocyanin tomatoes. Lots of folks appreciate and are having fun growing his tomatoes, too.

So, I appreciate all your comments and suggestions, and do not take any to offence unless you clearly intend for me to do so. But I spent a lifetime in politics, so you will find it very hard to truly offend me, as I understand human nature pretty well. I hope you understand me and my intent.

Peace,

Bill Jeffers

[Redbaron]

Please explain to me Travis. What is the difference between semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate? I am not interested in sending emails, or discussing politics, or discussing the ethics of releasing unstable varieties etc... Just please post the difference between semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate here.

[travis]

Red Baron:

Semi-determinate, as I said above, is a widely accepted designation of tomato vine growth type. You can Google "semi-determinate" for many discussions and descriptions of semi-determinate varieties and plant growth characteristics.

What I describe as "semi-indeterminate" is a growth pattern that varies to a degree, only noticeable by close observation, from fully indeterminate growth pattern. Fully indeterminate tomato vines generally put out their first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode along the main stem, then repeat efflorescences every third internode thereafter. The same pattern applies to all side shoots of fully indeterminate tomato vines.

What I call "semi-indeterminate" pattern is where a vine that appears otherwise to be indeterminate, will put out its first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode, then repeat efflorescences alternately at the second or third internode, and occassionally right on a node opposite the leaf pediole ... so you occasionally see a fruit cluster emerge right on the leaf node (rather than within the internodal stem segment), and opposite the leaf frond. Additionally, the semi-indeterminate meristem and side shoots never terminate with a terminal efflorescence as do fully determinate and semi-determinate vines. This "semi-indeterminate" type of growth pattern obviously has the potential to produce significantly more fruit than a fully indeterminate pattern. And that is why I select for it in the MoCross grow-outs.

I'd like to thank Mischka and Tomatoville for allowing my explanations, and hope my explanations have helped reduce the confusion and questionability of what you have read here and at other websites regarding my germplasm.

Bill Jeffers

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by travis

Red Baron:

Semi-determinate, as I said above, is a widely accepted designation of tomato vine growth type. You can Google "semi-determinate" for many discussions and descriptions of semi-determinate varieties and plant growth characteristics.

What I describe as "semi-indeterminate" is a growth pattern that varies to a degree, only noticeable by close observation, from fully indeterminate growth pattern. Fully indeterminate tomato vines generally put out their first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode along the main stem, then repeat efflorescences every third internode thereafter. The same pattern applies to all side shoots of fully indeterminate tomato vines.

What I call "semi-indeterminate" pattern is where a vine that appears otherwise to be indeterminate, will put out its first efflorescence at the 5th to 7th internode, then repeat efflorescences alternately at the second or third internode, and occassionally right on a node opposite the leaf pediole ... so you occasionally see a fruit cluster emerge right on the leaf node (rather than within the internodal stem segment), and opposite the leaf frond. Additionally, the semi-indeterminate meristem and side shoots never terminate with a terminal efflorescence as do fully determinate and semi-determinate vines. This "semi-indeterminate" type of growth pattern obviously has the potential to produce significantly more fruit than a fully indeterminate pattern. And that is why I select for it in the MoCross grow-outs.

I'd like to thank Mischka and Tomatoville for allowing my explanations, and hope my explanations have helped reduce the confusion and questionability of what you have read here and at other websites regarding my germplasm.

Bill Jeffers

OK Bill but what you just described is what is commonly found on semi-determinates. IE Indeterminates flower every 3rd node but grow on basically forever, Determinates every 2 nodes but terminate after several flower branches, And semi-determinates carry a mixture of both by flowering every 2 like a determinate and while a branch may terminate sometimes, the plant as a whole never terminates just like an indeterminate.

So is that the main thing you are drawing a distinction on? Whether a side branch sometimes terminates or whether it never terminates? Because if it never terminates ever, then I wonder why call it a semi-indeterminate at all? Sounds like a normal indeterminate that just happens to send out flowers at 2 nodes instead of 3. Or am I missing something else?

[travis]

Yes, Red, you are missing parts of the distinction I made between fully indeterminate growth patterns and the "semi-indeterminate" growth pattern I have observed in one of the MoCross lines.

Moreover, If I were to follow your line of reasoning, then there would be no distinction between determinate and semi-determinate.

But I don't think I will belabor the issue here any longer. Photographs would be more explanatory than my words, which apparently are insufficient to illuminate the distinctions between indeterminate and what I call semi-indeterminate from what I have observed. And for reasons I wish not to explain at this time, I will not post photographs from my photobucket at this time. Please understand or simply accept the position that I am in here.

Bill

Edit: I re-read your post, and now will add that not all determinates show efflorescences on every second internode. I have observed determinates (tomato plants with growth patterns that inevidably terminate the meristem and all side shoots with a terminal efflorescence) that put out efflorescences every internode, or alternately every internode and every other internode. So there are variances within the classification of fully determinate as well, I suppose. So, if it suits one, he may say that the "semi-indeterminate" pattern, as I call it, is nothing more than a variable indeterminate, then so be it. But I will continue to use my designation, as I feel it is as legit as "semi-determinate" from the detailed observations I have made.

[gixxerific]

Sounds like you are just jealous. Either that or just stupid or maybe mad, eh Steve. Isn't that why you started this thread, for revenge, c'mon tell the truth.

And to go after Bill, Mishka you should be ashamed of yourself. He is one the more honest and detail oriented breeders out there. He's not looking for fame or fortune just a good tomato and to be able to share that with the world. Get over the nothing you are fighting about and go plant some seed instead.

That's what we are here for. It's hard to be gardener when you are so busy trying to undermine a whole forum mainly because you dislike a single person. Than you drag others into it for no reason. Get a life!

I really can't take this much more. All the animosity and the hate. This has nothing to do with the garden. I am sorry you all got your asses kicked by all the neighborhood kids growing up or that your father molested you but don't take it out on us.

Us, yes, I a member at the hated forum as well as many other forums. That does not mean I take sides but all the confrontation in this matter seems to start from this side. Is it really necessary, ★★★★ NO!!!!

I will be happily growing out some of Bill's frankenfruit as you call them to a point. Too bad you won't, I am sorry for that.

You know there are some really great people on here it's just too bad there a small handful of ★★★★★★★s that ★★★★ it up for everyone else. Just like this thread what's the point, revenge in my eyes. Because you haven't shown me proof yet that your points will come to fruition. This is all based on speculation and hate.

By the way while you are banning me Mishka think about this. I have seeds from Craig for the Dwarf Project. Never fear Craig I am an honest non hate filled (except for now) person. I will grow out your seeds and try my best to report back to you even if I have to do it through email. But if for some reason I can not get back to you. Feel free to blame the hate mongers on this site.

Dono

Too all you haters you can suck my mother★★★★ing dick. To the rest I am sorry I will not be learning from and teaching you. And I hope you all have great gardens this year and every year after. Oh yea to all the haters again, I hope all your seedlings get a disease.

Peace out

[Redbaron]

I am not trying to be cagey Bill. I simply am not fully understanding. I see the productivity advantage of flowering every 2 nodes in an indeterminate. I have even grown indeterminates that had this trait, although it is rare. Over 30 years ago I crossed a Rutgers (semi-determinate strain) with a yellow indeterminate tomato, (I forget which one but it was from Burpee and Mom liked it) and in my f3 generation I had a yellow indeterminate that flowered every 2 nodes like you mentioned. It even occasionally threw an extra flower right at the leaf joint like you said above (very rarely). That strain is long gone because I moved away and got sidetracked with life!

But it never occurred to me to call it anything other than an especially fruitful and productive indeterminate.