Mycorrhizae..can I get more bang for my $$$?

[FILMNET]

Epsoma Bio-Tone Plus


Bio-tone® Starter Plus 4-3-3

• All natural plant food with bacteria, humates and mycorrhizae.
• For enhanced root development.
• In 4, 20 and 25 lb. bags.

» Product Details

[royceag]

Thanks Filmnet. They've got that at Lowes. I guess that's not for side dressing though, just at planting.

[FILMNET]

I got a bag free from Epsoma 4lb its the best around you could use it for side dressing but its expensive make sure if the plus one. They sent me bags also of Garden -tone and Plant-Tone which now has Bio-Tone Microbes in the bags here is 1 20lb bag they sent, this is a new package its not even on their website yet, this label in corner is new.

[royceag]

Lucky you with the freebies!! I think they just got the new bags of Garden-Tone at Lowes too because they had both on the shelves and it confused me (I'm sorta slow...) hehe!

[amideutch]

So, if you had to pick a single product to impart these fungi, which one would it be?

Since we are talking Fungi it would be MycoGrow Soluable. Ami

[royceag]

Danke Ami! Will look for it directly. Best, Royce

[FILMNET]

I won a box last spring because i put my garden phots on there face book page, tee shirt and 4 bags Bio Tone, potting soil and the fish fertilizer, this spring we found the wheelbarrow from 1930s in our cellar. I took shot with there bags in it around our house and neighbors house,4- 20lg bags of Plant-Tone, Garden -Tone, Holly-Tone, potting soil and 2 spray bottles. i did post shots here of these.

[royceag]

Nice gifties for a stunning pic!

[RayR]

It's an interesting idea and would make a good experiment for someone with a powerful microscope.

Compost would already have an active population of bacteria and fungi, but commercial inoculants are sold as dormant spores in a carrier containing a food source and other compounds to encourage germination.
The question is: How long can you keep the bacterial populations alive and growing in a water/nutrient mix? Or is that not the best way to culture them? Bacillus subtilis and Streptomyces lydicus are also two vary different types of bacteria with vary different methods of colonization and reproduction, but both need a stable substrate to grow on, so I think you are right about not successfully keeping a small amount of the culture going for long in just a water/nutrient mix.

[greentiger87]

Well, it would basically be a diy version of submerged culture, which is an established way of culturing many useful organisms. A nutrient broth is inoculated with the microorganism in a flask, and then placed on a shaker table (with or without incubation). The nutrient broth is tailored precisely to fit whatever the goal is - producing a natural secondary metabolite or a transgenic product, producing spores for drying, or just producing more of the organism. It's scaled up to large tanks with air blowers for things like antibiotic production (and is likely how Actinovate and Serenade are made to begin with). The normal time period before a batch would be "ready", or full of spores and secondary metabolites, is usually around 48 hours.

I've investigated submerged culture of both bacillus subtilis and streptomyces lydicus... despite being very different animals, the actual requirements, especially for a rough/imprecise culture like this, are very similar. A carbon/carbohydrate source, a protein/nitrogen source, aeration, and trace elements (covered by tap water and whole food nutrient sources). In fact, other than being cultured at room temperature, this doesn't differ much from the submerged culture of E. coli, which I'm very familiar with.

[RayR]

Thanks, It's good to have someone around here with your professional knowledge of microbiology. I'm an amateur But I do understand what you are saying from what I've read.
In the case of Bacillus subtilis which reproduces by both binary fission and by producing endospores, if you want spore production, you would lower the nutrient inputs, basically starving Bacillus subtilis. Bacillus subtilis is triggered into producing endospores when under nutrient stress, kind of insurance for species survival if things get hostile. Is that basically the same reaction as would happen with Streptomyces lydicus though it only reproduces by spores?

[greentiger87]

Lol, just as a caveat. I'm not actually a microbiologist by profession. Most of my undergrad training was in biochemistry and microbiology, but I ended up getting a job as a materials chemist.

Streptomyces spp. are not nearly as well understood as Bacillus subtilis, but the basic triggers for spore formation are the same - nutrient depletion and environmental stress. Additionally, some aspects of primary metabolism may be triggers as well - e.g., accumulation of glycogen or other energy storage molecules.

You're right that Streptomyces only truly reproduces by spores (called conidiospores in this case). Conidiospores are much easier to kill than endospores, but they're omnipresent in the air and quite successful. Strepomyces is weird because it has some characteristics of a multicellular organism. When it first germinates, it goes through a phase of vegetative growth where it grows a filamentous, branched "primary mycelium" that's really similar to fungal mycelium. Each strand grows only from the tip, and is essentially one cell with many, many copies of the organism's genetic material. Rarely, the filament does actually go through "cell division" by partitioning the strand with a cell wall, but the new cell is not a new organism - it remains integrated with the rest of the mycelium.

When sporulation is triggered, Streptomyces produces an "aerial" mycelium that rises above the substrate and partitions into individual compartments, each with a copy of the genetic material. These compartments eventually become spores, and drift off in the air to find new and exciting adventures.

On a solid substrate, like agar, perlite, wheat bran, etc., sporulation is extremely obvious - a big fuzzy, hairy mass appears. It's usually a darker color than the primary mycelium as well.

It seems that the time to sporulation varies a lot, from 3 days to 14 days. Some of that has to do with the sheer size of the culture involved, but it may take a certain amount of time for the bacteria to develop regardless of other factors.

It's not yet clear to me how you can tell if sporulation has occurred in a liquid (submerged) culture. I'll have to do some more research there.

Truthfully though, it really doesn't matter. Even fragmented pieces of primary mycelium remain viable, and are a perfectly good way of delivering the organism when you're not worried about preserving, packaging, storing, and delivering a standardized product to a customer.

Multiple references do say that producing Streptomyces spores on a sterilized solid substrate is easier and more economical. But it's not clear to me whether or not mechanical aeration is necessary, and how it could be accomplished in a DIY context.

Btw, all of this is a piece of cake for Bacillus subtilis. Just throw it in with some nutrients and air, and let it multiply. Production of endospores, again, really isn't necessary.

[Cole_Robbie]

This is a good thread to bump with my questions. I have been trying to figure out a beneficial bacteria/fungi innoculant.

What if I bought mycogrow: http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html

and tried to keep a constant culture of it in the water I used for my greenhouse plants? I have a 220 gallon horse trough I can fill with water. I would need a lightproof lid and an air or water pump for aeration, but that is no big deal. Last year I kept bluegill in the tank and used that water. It's a similar idea.

I have read that a lot of the US uses chloramine now in the tap water and not chlorine. Chloramine has a half-life of about three months, unlike Chlorine which is closer to three days. I am hesitant about using tap water at all. I could use pond water; it would be bacteria soup. I guess that would mess up my culture effort. Maybe pond water treated with chlorox that has sat for a week? It might be easier just to buy a reverse osmosis water filter.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

This is a good thread to bump with my questions. I have been trying to figure out a beneficial bacteria/fungi innoculant.

What if I bought mycogrow: http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html

and tried to keep a constant culture of it in the water I used for my greenhouse plants? I have a 220 gallon horse trough I can fill with water. I would need a lightproof lid and an air or water pump for aeration, but that is no big deal. Last year I kept bluegill in the tank and used that water. It's a similar idea.

I have read that a lot of the US uses chloramine now in the tap water and not chlorine. Chloramine has a half-life of about three months, unlike Chlorine which is closer to three days. I am hesitant about using tap water at all. I could use pond water; it would be bacteria soup. I guess that would mess up my culture effort. Maybe pond water treated with chlorox that has sat for a week? It might be easier just to buy a reverse osmosis water filter.

Most Myco need a living plant in fertile healthy soil or compost to propagate. It is a symbiotic relationship. Most the bacteria can be grown in the "compost tea".

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

This is a good thread to bump with my questions. I have been trying to figure out a beneficial bacteria/fungi innoculant.

What if I bought mycogrow: http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/...uble-1-oz.html

and tried to keep a constant culture of it in the water I used for my greenhouse plants? I have a 220 gallon horse trough I can fill with water. I would need a lightproof lid and an air or water pump for aeration, but that is no big deal. Last year I kept bluegill in the tank and used that water. It's a similar idea.

I have read that a lot of the US uses chloramine now in the tap water and not chlorine. Chloramine has a half-life of about three months, unlike Chlorine which is closer to three days. I am hesitant about using tap water at all. I could use pond water; it would be bacteria soup. I guess that would mess up my culture effort. Maybe pond water treated with chlorox that has sat for a week? It might be easier just to buy a reverse osmosis water filter.

I don't think it's worth it to try to keep a constant water culture going, some species may not even be able to survive long term in such conditions. I've never seen any recommendations for keeping an AACT or inoculant tea going for more than 36 hours. A lot depends on the water temperature, oxygen level and food sources.
Treating your soil is not something that needs to be done regularly anyway. Get them in the soil and they'll take care of themselves.
Although many bacteria can be cultured in a liquid medium, Mycorrhizae need to be near living roots, they can't be cultured in a tea. Trichoderma fungi are cultured in a substrate.

If using tap water, find out whether Chloramine is being used or not in your city water. Chlorine is much easier to deal with, Chloramines would need to be treated, liquid humic acids are supposed to work well at neutralizing Chloramines.
I prefer whenever possible to use rainwater for preparing commercial inoculants or AACT, no worries there.