Which is better - small or large transplant?

[cushman350]

Originally Posted by organichris

I like to transplant 15 inch or so plants - not because its necessarily the best thing, but because I like to bury the plant as deep as possible, making a freaky root system. Plus the older plant will generally produce tomatoes faster, and generally there is a connection between age and size, assuming the plant isn't rootbound and stuck in neutral for several weeks.

That's what I'm tawkin' 'bout.

[organichris]

Originally Posted by cushman350

That's what I'm tawkin' 'bout.

The earlier the better. And yeah, dude. When its freaking 100 degrees outside, that extra advantage is going to make a difference.

[dice]

Originally Posted by dice

4-inch tall seedlings, 8-inch tall seedlings, and 12-inch tall
seedlings are usually all the same size plant by the first of July.

A lot depends on climate. If your plants are typically all dead
from the heat by first of July, or at best not likely to set any
more fruit for the next 3 months, you may want more mature
seedlings at transplant than someone growing where
mid-summer is still part of the growing season.

The decision on whether to trench plant or deep plant older
seedlings is likewise dependent on how much heat and wind
stress they are likely to endure over a growing season. In
cooler soils, plants with more roots near the surface grow
better. In soils that drain well in hot climates, a deeper root
system has a better chance of keeping the plant hydrated,
so deep planting a taller seedling works better than trench
planting it.

[lowlylowlycook]

There needs to be a website that people can upload their seedling pictures to.

It should be called stockyornot.com


I'll be here all night folks. Please tip your waitresses.

[cushman350]

Originally Posted by dice

A lot depends on climate. If your plants are typically all dead
from the heat by first of July, or at best not likely to set any
more fruit for the next 3 months, you may want more mature
seedlings at transplant than someone growing where
mid-summer is still part of the growing season.

The decision on whether to trench plant or deep plant older
seedlings is likewise dependent on how much heat and wind
stress they are likely to endure over a growing season. In
cooler soils, plants with more roots near the surface grow
better. In soils that drain well in hot climates, a deeper root
system has a better chance of keeping the plant hydrated,
so deep planting a taller seedling works better than trench
planting it.

In Wichita Falls, Tx, the chart doesn't even show a fall planting for tomatoes. But, my plants don't all just die. If water is maintained, they go dormant until the temps relent, then they start new growth. This is way quicker than planting seedlings or clones. I've tried. So, if I don't have need of the EB, I leave the tom alone nurse it along then renew with 1/2 the original amount of fert and add weekly snacks of CaNO3 to bump they out of dormantcy when the temps start staying under 95, then blooms come as the prime pollination temps arrive, root system already established (better than seedlings). Then I have to protect again with my plastic impromptu mini-greenhouse.

Below is my last years attempt at a fall crop. Meh.

[semi_lucid]

Carolyn

Quoting from the link that you posted;

"Hence the practice of transplanting one or more times before the plants are finally set into the field. Transplanting or potting of seedlings tends to modify the natural taproot system into a more or less fibrous one, due to the injury to the taproot. The change in the root system is really very profound (Fig. 70)."

So are you saying that when you moved the seedling's from the Permanest pans to the 2" cells it would cause enough disturbance or damage to the tap root to create a difference in the root form?

I seeded my plants directly into 18oz plastic cups.

If I pop one of them out of the cup and look at the tap root its wondering around the bottom of the cup. My plants look great, but I think I may have a less than optimal root situation.

I could pop then out of the cup and deliberately damage the tap root.

John

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by semi_lucid

Carolyn

Quoting from the link that you posted;

"Hence the practice of transplanting one or more times before the plants are finally set into the field. Transplanting or potting of seedlings tends to modify the natural taproot system into a more or less fibrous one, due to the injury to the taproot. The change in the root system is really very profound (Fig. 70)."

So are you saying that when you moved the seedling's from the Permanest pans to the 2" cells it would cause enough disturbance or damage to the tap root to create a difference in the root form?

I seeded my plants directly into 18oz plastic cups.

If I pop one of them out of the cup and look at the tap root its wondering around the bottom of the cup. My plants look great, but I think I may have a less than optimal root situation.

I could pop then out of the cup and deliberately damage the tap root.

John

YEs John, transplanting from the seed pans to the plastic cells converts the tap root to a fibrous root structure and it's what every commercial farmer I know does and so do I.

There are few places where tomatoes are directed seeded to the field, most of them in CA for processing determinate types and they can get away with that tap root structure b'c they feed them with foliar fertilizers thus bypassing the tap root.

A fibrous root structure is far superior to a tap root structure as your cut and paste from the article suggests.

More root surface area for uptake of water and nutrients.

Yes, you could pop them out of the cup they were directed seeded to and make just one transplant and that would do it.

[cushman350]

Excessive potting impairs the formation of appropriate root structures, Fiberous vs tap root. OK

[JoeP]

I transplanted my seedlings rather late. They were in the cells for 4 weeks and most had had a set of true leaves for three weeks by the time of transplant.

Did this stunt or slow the growth?

Are they likely to catch up?

I am about 2 weeks away from my last frost date. I think they will still be tiny still at that time or a week later.

Many of the seedlings that were the first to show a true leaf are now starting to yellow or brown (the true leaf). They spent a few afternoons outside in the sun and all day today. They spend the days under lights inside at 60 degrees or more and nights inside at the same temp. I had planned to move them to a low tunnel covered with clear plastic on the ground, possibly with a heat lamp if the weather is nasty. This doesn't seem to be going very well. I just can't see the seedlings growing to 6" in two or three weeks.

Opinions and advice is welcome! I think I'll buy some transplants as insurance but I'd like to salvage these if possible? A fools errand?

[dice]

Maybe they are drying out faster than you expect?

With good weather in May and June, smaller seedlings catch
up to larger seedlings. Keeping them in the 2" cells longer than
you planned is ok as long as they don't dry out for long
enough to damage the seedling. Some people (Carolyn for
example) keep them in 2" cells until transplanting into the
garden. This does require more careful attention to how moist
the seed-starting mix is, because the plant puts more demand
for water on a smaller volume of seed-starting mix. (She also
starts her seeds later than most of us and tends toward
5-6 weeks from sprouting to transplant rather than 8-10 weeks.)

Overwatering can produce what look like dieing seedlings, too.
I have had seedlings that look bone dry on the top of the seed
starting mix, yet a moisture meter showed that they were still
quite moist down in the bottom half of the cell or small pot and
did not need water yet.

Plants that have been indoors are not hardened off yet, and
sunburn and windburn are risks when you take them out into
the sun. The leaves get a kind of silvery appearance from
sunburn. You want introduction to direct sunlight to be quite
gradual, over a week or so, scaling the exposure up each day.

Edit: Feldon's guide for hardening off seedlings:
http://www.settfest.com/2010/06/star.../#hardeningoff

Photo showing sunburned tomato leaves:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5TlVck4SXN...0/IMG_9671.JPG

You could try some first aid, a little dilute fish fertilizer or fish
plus kelp or liquid earthworm castings. One thing I suggested
for someone that had good sized seedlings that were showing
some yellowing in the lower leaves was dipping the whole
seedling (upside down) in molasses and epsom salts, say a
teaspoon per gallon each. This provides abundant magnesium,
some iron, other minerals that are in the molasses, potassium,
etc, in forms that can be absorbed through the leaves.

You can also try a mild dose of water soluble synthetic fertilizer,
1/4 teaspoon per gallon or less. The only real problem with this
is that it is possible to overdo it and kill them off with fertilizer
burn.

[rsg2001]

I start my seeds in 2" x 2" cells and they stay there until I plant out. They do fine this way; one just has to make sure you've given them a little time to harden off. I used to transplant them to individual 4" pots but found that the end result wasn't worth the extra time (and also expense for extra planting medium); I wound up with transplants that were much too big from the standpoint of both height and girth, and that were prone to breaking when I trench-planted them.

Each year I've learned to start them later and later ... This year I started most of them April 1 (the hot peppers a little earlier) and they range from 3" to 5" tall. I've had the best germination this year than ever, really doing nothing different.

[desertlzbn]

This year I planted over 1800 seed to sell seedlings. I started my seed in December. Here in the desert, we try to get in the ground as early as possible. I planted out Feb. 15. I was selling plants up until 2 weeks ago. Yes they were rootbound, and they were about 18 inches tall, but I planted some about a week ago, just because I had them leftover, and they are doing GREAT. I have a theory that out here, we have to start early and plant early because if you don't it just gets too hot too soon, and you don't end up with any tomatoes.
I really don't have any idea what I am doing either, just trying to make up some of my gardening costs by selling some seedlings.
Good luck!

[cushman350]

This early strategy has become my policy in Wichita Falls, Tx. It's hot windy and dry most of the time and last frost is about Apr 1 + or - a week. 95°+ arrives at the end of May most of the time. This year we set a new record for April since 1953, 100°. Not enough time, so timing is EVERYTHING, here, if you want tomatoes, here in Tomato Hell.

[JoeP]

Are these things going to make it?

They were transplanted 2 weeks ago. Not much growth since then. They were inside for a week under lights with a couple hours in the sun in the afternoons, then moved out under a plastic covered tunnel with a heat lamp on a day/night switch. They were next to the house and were shaded in the evening so not direct sun all day. Now under the same low tunnel in the garden in full sun.

They are in a seed starting mix with 70% sphangum moss. Got their first dose of fish and seeweed fertilizer 5 days ago - diluted to bottle recommendations - both foliar spray and watered in. They look a little worse now after the fertilizer. They may be overwatered.

So my questions:

1. Will these outgrow the browning/yellowing leaves?
2. With 2 more weeks til plant out, will these catch up or be later to mature fruit?
3. Should I wait until they are bigger to plant out or plant them as soon as the soil is warm and weather is good?

If they do not grow much taller over the next 2 weeks, then I won't be able to plant them much deeper, burying some of the stem for increased root growth.

Thanks in advance.
Joe

[RayR]

Originally Posted by JoeP

They are in a seed starting mix with 70% sphangum moss. Got their first dose of fish and seeweed fertilizer 5 days ago - diluted to bottle recommendations - both foliar spray and watered in. They look a little worse now after the fertilizer. They may be overwatered.

Joe, I think the problem might be in the first line of that paragraph. From my experience, seed starting mixes are great for starting seedlings, but stink for potting up.
I alway use a compost based potting soil for potting up which has far less peat than seed starting mix. The seedling respond much better to a heavier mix which retains moisture and nutrients better around the developing roots.
This has been a strange year for me too, my seedlings seemed to be growing in slow motion during this cold April, I finally potted mine up this past weekend after most had developed some true leaves, watered them in with heavily diluted fish/seaweed and they greened up nicely after 24-48 hours and are showing much faster growth now.
Your fertilizer is not a problem unless you are not diluting it enough. It should be half to a fourth of what is recommended for mature plants.