Organic Convert - Page 3

dice · January 31, 2012

I used the holes to compensate for the lack of organic matter in the soil
at first. I went from 5 gallon holes with horse manure and compost, to 3
gallon holes with horse manure and compost, to 2 gallon holes with just
compost, to 1 gallon holes with either compost, mowed hairy vetch top
growth, or mowed clover and alfalfa mixed into the dirt in the hole
around the seedling.

The OP can probably substitute llama or alpaca manure for the horse
manure and get comparable results. Cow manure or chicken manure
I would layer with leaves and let them compost first.

I keep an eye on the plants, too. If they seem to be a little slow to take off,
I supplement with some fish emulsion, molasses, and liquid kelp (at about
a tablespoon of each per gallon as often as necessary, waiting a couple
of weeks before checking to see if they need more.)

When they first start to set fruit, I will sprinkle another handful of
whatever I mixed into the planting hole under each plant and give
them a soil drench with dissolved molasses. If I have extra compost
still after planting everything, I will make some compost tea when they
are 2-3' high and give each plant a soil drench with a half-gallon to a
gallon of that. I have seen them put on a nice growth spurt immediately
after that.

dice · February 1, 2012

This is just how I converted a patch of ground that was not natively
very fertile to a fertile soil. Some parts of it are specific to the native
soil here. We get a lot of rainfall, so we also get a lot of anaerobic
decay in winter when the soil is saturated. That lowers pH, so using
lime or dolomite to resupply calcium every few years helps keep the
pH up between 6 and 7, where the plants like it. Calcium is mobile in
the soil, and the rain will eventually wash it down below the root zone
if the natural supply is limited. Using gypsum in years when I do not
add dolomite lime makes sure that the plants have calcium available
to their roots.

If your native soil is alkaline (pH above 7), you probably do not want
to make it more alkaline by adding lime to it, and gypsum is a better
choice to add calcium. If your soil is alkaline and naturally high in calcium
(lots of broken down limestone in it), then you may not need either lime
or gypsum to keep your plants supplied with calcium. If your soil is alkaline
and high in magnesium, you probably do need the gypsum just to balance
the calcium and magnesium supply to the plant roots.

(A soil test is a good thing when it comes to calcium and pH
management in particular. The USDA also has a database of
what native soils are like in different parts of the country:
http://soils.usda.gov/
)

If you own animals that produce a steady supply of manure, or if you
have neighbors who do (if you live in an area where there is always
more than enough manure around for anybody that wants it), you
probably do not need to add rock phosphate to your garden soil.
The manure always has some, and using it year after year,
phosphorus levels will build up in your soil. Many cover crops
recycle phosphorous that has become bound to other compounds
in the soil and become insoluble, so that it is available to plant
roots again.

The soil here has a lot of clay, so it holds enough water for something
growing in the paths between rows in summer (alfalfa, buckwheat,
clover, annual ryegrass, etc) and the crops in the rows. In soil that had
more sand, that might not be the case, and one might want to only
mulch between rows in summer to reduce the competition for water
between the cover crop in the paths and the food crop. (In winter
there is no food crop in most of North America, so winter cover
crops and row crops do not compete for water, unless you live far
enough south that winter frosts are rare and have sandy soil.)

Tracydr · February 9, 2012

I've noticed in our heat, once you add water, the organic materials really tend to disappear quickly. I add a large amount of horse manure each year, mixing in with pine straw. I mulch with pine straw and that also gets mixed in as I stir the mix after each crop is changed. The pine straw and manure just disappears. I add about 10-12 inches of manure and mulch with a foot of pine straw.

Tracydr · February 9, 2012

What do you do for the alkalinity? Sulphur? How much?

dice · February 10, 2012

[alkalinity]
Sulfur or iron sulfate is recommended most places. Arizona has so much
calcium carbonate in the soil that simply adding gypsum to help leach
out sodium (I do not know exactly how that works, not being a chemist)
may be recommended instead. Here is a writeup from the Arizona
"Master Gardener Reference manual":
http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/soils/ph.html

Some vendor products in the turf industry use organic acids instead of
sulfur or iron sulfate, applied via drip or boom sprayer irrigation.

I would think in places with soils like Arizona, changing the alkalinity
of the soil itself by adding acids to react with the calcium carbonate
in the soil is like trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. What
farmers do instead in those soils is try to leach the sodium and
salts down below the root zone with deep irrigation. Mixing in a
lot of organic matter compared to what someone might need
in lower pH soils probably helps, too, providing exchangeable
ion sites on humic organic compounds that would not exist in
the native soil, but like you say, it does not last long in the heat
without a steady supply of fresh organic matter to add.

Simply adding humic and fulvic acids directly (dissolved from leonardite,
for example) may help with nutrient uptake, too, for the same reasons
(although bulk organic matter like manure and compost also adds water
holding capacity, air space, friendlier environments for soil microbes, etc).

willyb · March 1, 2012

You don't have to convert 100% in the first year. Block off a portion of your garden space. 50% if possible to get there quick. If not that much, chip away at it. Get a 5 gallon bucket of soil from an organic garden and spread it around. Any chance you get, get organic soil and throw it on your garden. A handfull has a lots of benifical bacteria. Borrow some worms from friends. Add as much manure and leaves and/or straw as you can cost effectivly obtain. Till it in well. Let it rest for a time and till it again. This will add air and re-distribute the soil bacteria. Plant a cover crop of clover or vetch. Till it in in the fall and again in the spring. Put a few tomatos or veggies there this year, or a climbimg bean tepee. Legumes will add nitrogen to the soil. Get some peas and bean seeds from your friends, broadcast them, let them grow and harvest. Save the beans and plant again for more soil improvment. You have been chemical in the past, you won't go to hell for one more year until you get organic. If there is ever a post hole auger in the area, punch some deep holes at random, bring up the mineral rich clays and let the topsoil fill the holes. You will have a great garden next year and a better one the next. Garden soils are fixable.

b54red · March 1, 2012

I have found another problem with adding large quantities of manures over years and that is the buildup of phosphate. The only chemical fertilizer I use anymore is something like Miracle Grow which doesn't bother worms. If you can find cottonseed meal in the 50 pound bags at a reasonable cost it will do more to draw worms into your garden than anything I have ever found. It is also a very good organic fertilizer at a reasonable price. I add it to my beds along with some alfalfa pellets (about half as much) every time I get ready to plant any kind of crop. I will fertilize occasionally with a water soluble fertilizer to give certain crops a boost they need at different times.

I now have beds full of wonderfully rich organic matter and teeming with worms. It took me years to get them to this point and it took tons of manure, compost, leaves, grass clippings, hay, peanut hulls, mushroom compost, cottonseed meal, and alfalfa pellets. Now my beds are so full I have a hard time working in just a little compost and cottonseed meal. This will be the first year in over 20 years that I will not be adding bulk organic matter to my beds because there is just no where to put it.

It will take you a few years to get really good results so don't get too impatient. If you need to give the plants a little boost a bit of Miracle Grow won't run off the worms and it might make the difference in a poor crop and a good crop. One thing that will quickly get the worms to leave your garden is liberal applications of something like 10-10-10 or Ammonium Nitrate. Within two years of stopping the use of the bagged granular fertilizers my garden was getting a fair number of worms. When I started using cottonseed meal the population exploded.

willyb · March 1, 2012

Rule of thumb for an organic gardner " If it comes in a bag, pass it up" You don't need it. Look in your local for organic materials for soil amendments. As responsible gardeners would we suporrt a system that trucks bags of something from coast to coast to make "dirt". Think of the waste of resources. To what end? One more tomato? Start 2 more seeds and grow 1 more plant for 6 more tomatoes. If it costs $8 from CA to NC, you can probebly get as good or close in NC for $1

Don't throw your money away on soil amendments and fertilizers, use what is local, avalible and cost effective. Talk to the gal down the street and see what she uses that is local. Don't overly concern yourself with soil PH. Most of the plants we grow have a wide tolerance of soil PH. Don't soil test, it will change with additions to your soil, look at your plants, they will tell you what you need. Read online or book articles for signs of imbalance. Learn what local materials lowers and raises PH in your area. Learn what local materials add N, P or K and trace.

Worms. As gardners we all love them, great soil builders. We are not growing worms. If you work on the soil, the worms will come. If not the plants will thrive anyway.

The best thing you can do for your plants is to turn your soil early in the spring. It's like kneading bread to introduce the yeast to new protein. Adds air and feeds the good fauna.

January 31, 2012	#31
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	I used the holes to compensate for the lack of organic matter in the soil at first. I went from 5 gallon holes with horse manure and compost, to 3 gallon holes with horse manure and compost, to 2 gallon holes with just compost, to 1 gallon holes with either compost, mowed hairy vetch top growth, or mowed clover and alfalfa mixed into the dirt in the hole around the seedling. The OP can probably substitute llama or alpaca manure for the horse manure and get comparable results. Cow manure or chicken manure I would layer with leaves and let them compost first. I keep an eye on the plants, too. If they seem to be a little slow to take off, I supplement with some fish emulsion, molasses, and liquid kelp (at about a tablespoon of each per gallon as often as necessary, waiting a couple of weeks before checking to see if they need more.) When they first start to set fruit, I will sprinkle another handful of whatever I mixed into the planting hole under each plant and give them a soil drench with dissolved molasses. If I have extra compost still after planting everything, I will make some compost tea when they are 2-3' high and give each plant a soil drench with a half-gallon to a gallon of that. I have seen them put on a nice growth spurt immediately after that. __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; January 31, 2012 at 08:39 PM. Reason: typo

February 1, 2012	#32
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	This is just how I converted a patch of ground that was not natively very fertile to a fertile soil. Some parts of it are specific to the native soil here. We get a lot of rainfall, so we also get a lot of anaerobic decay in winter when the soil is saturated. That lowers pH, so using lime or dolomite to resupply calcium every few years helps keep the pH up between 6 and 7, where the plants like it. Calcium is mobile in the soil, and the rain will eventually wash it down below the root zone if the natural supply is limited. Using gypsum in years when I do not add dolomite lime makes sure that the plants have calcium available to their roots. If your native soil is alkaline (pH above 7), you probably do not want to make it more alkaline by adding lime to it, and gypsum is a better choice to add calcium. If your soil is alkaline and naturally high in calcium (lots of broken down limestone in it), then you may not need either lime or gypsum to keep your plants supplied with calcium. If your soil is alkaline and high in magnesium, you probably do need the gypsum just to balance the calcium and magnesium supply to the plant roots. (A soil test is a good thing when it comes to calcium and pH management in particular. The USDA also has a database of what native soils are like in different parts of the country: http://soils.usda.gov/ ) If you own animals that produce a steady supply of manure, or if you have neighbors who do (if you live in an area where there is always more than enough manure around for anybody that wants it), you probably do not need to add rock phosphate to your garden soil. The manure always has some, and using it year after year, phosphorus levels will build up in your soil. Many cover crops recycle phosphorous that has become bound to other compounds in the soil and become insoluble, so that it is available to plant roots again. The soil here has a lot of clay, so it holds enough water for something growing in the paths between rows in summer (alfalfa, buckwheat, clover, annual ryegrass, etc) and the crops in the rows. In soil that had more sand, that might not be the case, and one might want to only mulch between rows in summer to reduce the competition for water between the cover crop in the paths and the food crop. (In winter there is no food crop in most of North America, so winter cover crops and row crops do not compete for water, unless you live far enough south that winter frosts are rare and have sandy soil.) __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; February 10, 2012 at 06:09 PM. Reason: added soils database, etc

February 10, 2012	#35
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	[alkalinity] Sulfur or iron sulfate is recommended most places. Arizona has so much calcium carbonate in the soil that simply adding gypsum to help leach out sodium (I do not know exactly how that works, not being a chemist) may be recommended instead. Here is a writeup from the Arizona "Master Gardener Reference manual": http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/soils/ph.html Some vendor products in the turf industry use organic acids instead of sulfur or iron sulfate, applied via drip or boom sprayer irrigation. I would think in places with soils like Arizona, changing the alkalinity of the soil itself by adding acids to react with the calcium carbonate in the soil is like trying to empty an ocean with a bucket. What farmers do instead in those soils is try to leach the sodium and salts down below the root zone with deep irrigation. Mixing in a lot of organic matter compared to what someone might need in lower pH soils probably helps, too, providing exchangeable ion sites on humic organic compounds that would not exist in the native soil, but like you say, it does not last long in the heat without a steady supply of fresh organic matter to add. Simply adding humic and fulvic acids directly (dissolved from leonardite, for example) may help with nutrient uptake, too, for the same reasons (although bulk organic matter like manure and compost also adds water holding capacity, air space, friendlier environments for soil microbes, etc). __________________ -- alias

March 1, 2012	#36
willyb Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sherwood Park Alberta Canada Posts: 147	You don't have to convert 100% in the first year. Block off a portion of your garden space. 50% if possible to get there quick. If not that much, chip away at it. Get a 5 gallon bucket of soil from an organic garden and spread it around. Any chance you get, get organic soil and throw it on your garden. A handfull has a lots of benifical bacteria. Borrow some worms from friends. Add as much manure and leaves and/or straw as you can cost effectivly obtain. Till it in well. Let it rest for a time and till it again. This will add air and re-distribute the soil bacteria. Plant a cover crop of clover or vetch. Till it in in the fall and again in the spring. Put a few tomatos or veggies there this year, or a climbimg bean tepee. Legumes will add nitrogen to the soil. Get some peas and bean seeds from your friends, broadcast them, let them grow and harvest. Save the beans and plant again for more soil improvment. You have been chemical in the past, you won't go to hell for one more year until you get organic. If there is ever a post hole auger in the area, punch some deep holes at random, bring up the mineral rich clays and let the topsoil fill the holes. You will have a great garden next year and a better one the next. Garden soils are fixable. Last edited by willyb; March 1, 2012 at 01:05 AM. Reason: Added content

February 9, 2012	#33
Tracydr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7 Posts: 3,207	I've noticed in our heat, once you add water, the organic materials really tend to disappear quickly. I add a large amount of horse manure each year, mixing in with pine straw. I mulch with pine straw and that also gets mixed in as I stir the mix after each crop is changed. The pine straw and manure just disappears. I add about 10-12 inches of manure and mulch with a foot of pine straw.

March 1, 2012	#37
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I have found another problem with adding large quantities of manures over years and that is the buildup of phosphate. The only chemical fertilizer I use anymore is something like Miracle Grow which doesn't bother worms. If you can find cottonseed meal in the 50 pound bags at a reasonable cost it will do more to draw worms into your garden than anything I have ever found. It is also a very good organic fertilizer at a reasonable price. I add it to my beds along with some alfalfa pellets (about half as much) every time I get ready to plant any kind of crop. I will fertilize occasionally with a water soluble fertilizer to give certain crops a boost they need at different times. I now have beds full of wonderfully rich organic matter and teeming with worms. It took me years to get them to this point and it took tons of manure, compost, leaves, grass clippings, hay, peanut hulls, mushroom compost, cottonseed meal, and alfalfa pellets. Now my beds are so full I have a hard time working in just a little compost and cottonseed meal. This will be the first year in over 20 years that I will not be adding bulk organic matter to my beds because there is just no where to put it. It will take you a few years to get really good results so don't get too impatient. If you need to give the plants a little boost a bit of Miracle Grow won't run off the worms and it might make the difference in a poor crop and a good crop. One thing that will quickly get the worms to leave your garden is liberal applications of something like 10-10-10 or Ammonium Nitrate. Within two years of stopping the use of the bagged granular fertilizers my garden was getting a fair number of worms. When I started using cottonseed meal the population exploded.