The Red Baron Project year one

[Redbaron]

Welcome to the project Master Gardener! I am guessing by the size of it your project addition to the Red Baron project is smaller scale. That's cool! The whole idea was to develop something usable in any scale.

Do you plan to market anything? Or just your family?

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Do you plan to market anything? Or just your family?

Up until recently, I was primarily interested in growing for my own family. Then I got to thinking that I might be able to help pay for my habit by selling a few organic seedlings. I'm still exploring ideas. Thinking about farmers markets, Craig's List and word of mouth.

It would definitely be low volume so seedlings with high value would give me a bit of an edge over the mass marketers.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I am guessing by the size of it your project addition to the Red Baron project is smaller scale. That's cool! The whole idea was to develop something usable in any scale.

I think I am small scale at 1,000 sq. ft. of total growing area, not counting some flower beds around the house. When I talk with others they often look surprised. Some gardeners have told me they only have one x by y bed. That's OK. This isn't a competition for size. There are lots of reasons why people have small gardens and even no gardens. Health issues come to mind as one of them. Any garden is work, even containers, but worth the effort in my view.

[zeroma]

Redbaron,

What type of burlap did you use? I just bought 4 coffee bean bags from a local roasting company to try out as a light/weed barrier and to keep the newspapers etc.
in place. So the burlap will be on the next to the top layer, with just a layer of compost on the very top. It has a nice smooth rather tight weave. Very different from the stuff I see for sale at JoAnn Fabrics or at Lowe's/Home Depot.

I"ll be spreading it on my ivy hill!

[zeroma]

Originally Posted by Master_Gardener

Up until recently, I was primarily interested in growing for my own family. Then I got to thinking that I might be able to help pay for my habit by selling a few organic seedlings. I'm still exploring ideas. Thinking about farmers markets, Craig's List and word of mouth.

It would definitely be low volume so seedlings with high value would give me a bit of an edge over the mass marketers.

Sounds like you got the gardening bug bad MG! I understand it well. I way overgrew my tomato seedlings this year. (expensive little venture too, as I needed everything to get started this year, shelf units, lights fixtures, pots, blah blah blah)...wish I'd thought about selling my babies earlier.

Question about your stakes, where do I get the information you found about using these to 'fake out the worms' if I get the theory right?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by zeroma

Redbaron,

What type of burlap did you use? I just bought 4 coffee bean bags from a local roasting company to try out as a light/weed barrier and to keep the newspapers etc.
in place. So the burlap will be on the next to the top layer, with just a layer of compost on the very top. It has a nice smooth rather tight weave. Very different from the stuff I see for sale at JoAnn Fabrics or at Lowe's/Home Depot.

I"ll be spreading it on my ivy hill!

I got the burlap at the sale rack of a crafts store. Bought the whole row but it was only 25 feet long.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by zeroma

Question about your stakes, where do I get the information you found about using these to 'fake out the worms' if I get the theory right?

I've only found one book that references the use of wood stakes to improve soil. Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier. It's a two volume set comprising about 800 pages. Long, but great information with a focus on Temperate Climate Permaculture.

As I understand it, the wood stakes work similar to roots. As they decompose, they allow water and air to reach places in the soil that hard clay never would allow. Once the path is open, nature does the rest.

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

http://permaculturenews.org/2010/10/08/how-to-build-a-permaculture-vegetable-garden/
This is a photo report of a vegetable garden built for Ann Foster in Condobolin, NSW Australia, which shows basic steps that allow you to build your own permaculture veggie patch.

Needs: You don’t need much, but you do need:

• compost
• any ruminant manure
• lime
• cardboard (or hessian bags)
• Lucerne hay (or any acacia leaves)
• straw (seedless)
• water
• plants and seed

The basic tools:

• shovel
• rake
• sharp knife/screwdriver (for punching hole in cardboard)
• hose/watering can
• wheelbarrow

Very good information

Terry Layman

[Redbaron]

I am familiar with the techniques used down under. In fact I even posted a youtube vid on a thread last year on another thread. This thread here is for developing a new model that is scale-able . Yes we borrow from proven techniques like the one you posted. Absolutely 100% I borrowed from them just as they borrowed from Ruth Stout!

Remember, this is about developing a NEW model that can be used by both the backyard gardener, and with minor modification also used by the large commercial grower.

In my personal garden, which is separate from this thread and I have no photos of here, I actually use something very similar to your post. It isn't raised as much but it does even have a trench along the back for irrigation. That reminds me. Either this year or next I may have to dig that trench out again. it has been gradually over the years filling in!

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

[QUOTE=Redbaron;351442]Remember, this is about developing a NEW model that can be used by both the backyard gardener, and with minor modification also used by the large commercial grower.[/QUOTE]

I, would like to hear your therories of how you would upscale the backyard model type of Permaculture for feeding a single family to a large scale such that commercial growers use, without doing major modifications.

Just think of a commercial grower spreading hay in round bales on just 1 section of land, or adding compost to same amount of land, those types of modifications arn't major they would be astronomical, especially for the funds they would have to have to even to start the first year, and then on a yearly basis.

Terry Layman

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

In fact I even posted a youtube vid on a thread last year on another thread.

Can you point out that Thread for me, would very much like to see it.



In my personal garden, which is separate from this thread and I have no photos of here, I actually use something very similar to your post. It isn't raised as much but it does even have a trench along the back for irrigation.

How long have you been doing your personal garden?

Why not post some pictures of what you have done using this technique so you can show a comparison of what gardeners can expect after a few years, on this thread?

Pictures are worth a 1,000 words.

Terry

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

I, would like to hear your therories of how you would upscale the backyard model type of Permaculture for feeding a single family to a large scale such that commercial growers use, without doing major modifications.

Just think of a commercial grower spreading hay in round bales on just 1 section of land, or adding compost to same amount of land, those types of modifications arn't major they would be astronomical, especially for the funds they would have to have to even to start the first year, and then on a yearly basis.

Terry Layman

OK Basically, lets start with the hay rolls. That was expensive for me because I had to buy it. Still even having to buy it, the cost was small on a per plant basis. But with a baler...... You are keeping it on the farm. AND if animals are incorporated into the model, Managed intensive rotational grazing (MIRG) promotes 2-5 times the total biomass growth of a pasture. So making that hay in a rotation during peak growth is very doable. I don't know of a single commercial farmer who raises animals on pasture that doesn't already make hay. That leaves the paper or cardboard barrier as a cost. I still need to see how effective it is on a yearly basis. But if I can manage to make a single layer of bogus paper work, you can buy that at 1000 feet for about 25 dollars +/-. That cost would be divided by at least 250 plants. In other words only 10 cents a plant. Certainly a reasonable and manageable cost in building a competitive business model.

Other costs would include stakes for the Florida weave. Just keep in mind the Florida weave was developed by commercial growers in Florida....hence the name. So this is no different than already proven commercial growers business models. A one time investment for a new grower, no cost at all for an established grower that already uses the Florida weave.

Now for fertilizing. On a large scale you would need to keep this on farm. It simply is too expensive and bulky to try and import in that huge quantity of manure and organic matter for compost needed in effective organic methods. It also is a principle of permaculture to close the loop and make it sustainable. So that's where we must get creative with animals. Animals have many benefits. All animals have manures which fertilize the ground. Culls from the crops can double as feed. Chickens especially are great at pest control. Herbivores at weed control. The trick is to keep the animals out of the crops.

This can be done with portable electric fencing and portable cages like "chicken tractors" that run between the rows. This way you precisely control exactly when and where the animals are in relation to the crop. AND develop an additional revenue stream in eggs and/or meat. For example: Broilers take approximately 35 days on pasture to raise. So your rows would be 35 X the length of the chicken tractor. Lets use 10 feet as an example. The rows would be 350 feet long with a grass staging area between sections. The broilers would be finished and sold before the crop starts ripening, giving time for the biology to incorporate the manure before the harvesters need to get in the field. The current going price for pasture raised organic broilers is 10-20 dollars each, assuming you can even find them at all. Demand is MUCH higher than supply. That means for each row of 10-12 Tomato plants you will have an additional 750-1500 dollars gross income from your fertilization and pest control. See we just flipped a cost into an income stream by letting the the animals do the work in the field. So while there is somewhat more labor, it is well paid labor! Especially if in the crop rotation in later years you grow your own grain for the chickens using a no-till planter in the ground that in previous years grew tomatoes or other crops requiring heavy mulches. The sod should be well killed by then. Last rotation of course you could start the successional native species growing again to turn it back into 100% pasture again. And start the rotation in another field.

All this will take further work of course. This is just year 1. Right now I am just trying to work out how to grow the crops and control the weeds in a low labor low cost way. I won't start incorporating animals for at least a year or two. After I work out the rough edges with just the tomatoes and other crops.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

Can you point out that Thread for me, would very much like to see it.
How long have you been doing your personal garden?

Why not post some pictures of what you have done using this technique so you can show a comparison of what gardeners can expect after a few years, on this thread?

Pictures are worth a 1,000 words.

Terry

I was referring to this thread. A lot of very knowledgeable people posted here about using no til methods. No till

[Poma_adoris]

All very interesting Scott, and so good for the world to the extent that people use natural / organic methods. We are not totally there yet on our 5 acres, but do what we can. I've been thinking of trying a white clover "sod" over some beds, do you have any idea if that would work for simultaneous weed suppression, nitrogen fixation, and soil building?

Clever buying bean seeds at the grocery, much cheaper than "seed" beans! The only downside for production might be in not knowing the exact variety, but for soil building it shouldn't matter much. As you said, any crop would be a bonus. Watch out for the presence of soil "peds" (little clods) in the beans; preferably, wash them. Soil, even dry bits, can carry a noxious pest, soybean cyst nematodes, and beans sold for food would not be required to be free of them.

Last year I went tomato crazy for the first time. I planted over 50 kinds of seeds, putting 5 seeds of each in 2-1/2" peat pots in organic seedling mix. I didn't know kind of germination percentage to expect. Not surprisingly to you experienced Tomatovillians, many gave me 5 seedlings, and I only wanted one for my garden. So I potted the extras into 3" Jiffy Pots with organic mix and sold them at the farmer's market as "mostly organic", no pesticides, etc. They were grabbed up, and going even better this year.

So that "justified" my further investment in another 50 kinds of seeds this year - better chosen than the mostly-random ones last year. And lights ... trays ... labels ... sounds like Master Gardener, eh? Too bad Russel didn't think to try a farmer's market. Even with competition from other vendors, those plants sold well. Most farm market vendors grow a whole packet each of 3 or 4 kinds at most. Instead of 50 each of a few kinds as they do, I offer 3-12 each of 50 kinds. "do you have 'Pineapple'?" Yes. "Do you have 'Roma'? Yes ... but if I'm sold out, I can suggest 5 other kinds, and they are often open to good substitutes. Sometimes I suggest an alternative right away if I have a better choice. Now I need to get more experience actually growing these varieties, so I can make a personal statement not just based on published taste tests and books.

I can personally vouch for the demand for pasture raised animals. A neighbor started producing eggs and chickens from heirloom kinds, mostly pastured and mostly organic. I gladly pay $12 for a 3 pound chicken. The eggs are only $2.50 per dozen so far, she could ask more and I would pay it. The yolks are amazing compared to even the so-called "cage-free organic" ones at the stores.

I have eaten only a few ounces of pork (at a couple irresistible BBQ places) and even less beef in the last 6 years because I cannot find local pastured sources. It would make no sense to me to have it shipped frozen for 1000 miles from "Neiman-Marcus" Ranch. About 95% of my calories are vegetarian which is better for me anyway.

Keep up the good work, don't be discouraged by anyone who implies that it has all been done already, it hasn't; there's always something new. Plus, what works in another climate may not work in central Indiana (or Ohio where I am, next door, so I am very interested in your project).

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

RedBaron

My farmer Co-op friends tell me that what you are proposing is what Nobel Prize winners are made of.

Great idea's.


They even know of a Section of land in N central TX. that one of the members has that he would lease it over to you for $1 year, with lifetime renewal quaranteed.

But first there needs to be a plan of action drawn up, as to what you are going to do with that section of land.

No you can't do a test plot and have the same option of $1 year on the section, you will have to at least put in 3 distint subsections

1. Vegetable production

2. Raising cattle, and other meat source animals.

3. Growing and baling, high quality hay crops.

What do you think?

What are some of the start up materials that you will need?

Terry