TomatoTone + ? or Should I DIY?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by creister

Feldon,

I put 1/2 cup tomato tone and 2 cups of earthworm castings in each planting hole. I have had very impressive results using this combo

I use a similar system. Except this year my mix is 2 bags of peat, 1 bag of cow manure compost, 1 bag of mushroom compost, 1 bag of horse manure compost, 1 bag of potting soil, 1 bag of top soil, 1 bag of coffee grounds. All bags are 40-50 pounds and the whole lot cost me less than 10 dollars. (horse manure compost and coffee grounds are free). If that runs out I will use a 50/50 mix of horse manure compost and wood chip leaf compost. (free) If that runs out I will use municipal compost. (free if you load it yourself, or 10 dollars per truckload if they load it with their frontloader) That won't run out. I mix in a dry organic fertiliser in each batch. Last year I used garden tone. This year maybe garden tone again, or maybe I might try Urban farms dry organic fert product. I might even try some Unkle Dunkles organic. The pepper product seemed pretty good last year. (just to compare) I also add a mycorrhizal fungi inoculant dissolved in compost tea to each planting hole.

Since I am dealing with a few acres, I also just use this in the planting hole only. It's for the tomato/pepper seedlings only. There is no way to reasonably amend the whole acreage. It is one red brick. Technically LitB (sandy clay loam), but so degraded that it has almost no nutrients and only 1.2% organic matter. I did my soil tests. They are insufficient in everything! On the other hand, my small 1/10th acre test plot that has been using this system 2 years is already up to 2.6 % carbon and barely passed the soil test this year as sufficient in everything but nitrogen. YEAH!!!!!! And my small garden is so full of soft soil I hate to even walk on it after 6 years of this. It's not even red anymore down to 6-10 inches!

Keep in mind this is with no tillage and only amending the seedling holes. Besides that just mulch. I let the worms do the work. This is the lazy and cheap skate man's method. That I certainly am, but it might work for feldon too.

[Dutch]

I have learned much from reading Scott's (Redbaron) posts and I am applying what I can as my gardens mature and my methods evolve. Thanks Scott and I'm glad you took the time to post in this thread. Perhaps one day Feldon's garden can provide a happy environment for worms.
Dutch

[harleysilo]

Originally Posted by feldon30

Yes but not nearly that powdery.

That was right before sod was laid. Part of the preparation for the yard included a skid steer with a Harley Rake attached. That busted up the chunks into dust which was neat to see.

How big a tiller was used assuming that was the piece of machinery with the busted line? The reason i ask is that skid steer shown in the picture is a really small one.

When i dig a hole in my yard, as I’ve done for several small trees, i can fill the hole with water and it will stay in the hole for a couple of days depending on whether it's rained recently or not. I was shocked when i did the soil in a glass test, here is what it looked like.



Here is how i did my first tomato row. It worked great, after digging all the holes i just amended them heavily and had huge production and growth.



Here’s a picture taken while I trenched in a line with one of those trenchers on tracks…worked pretty well! I could trench many feet per minute. The reason I mention it is most people plant in rows. You could trench in your rows and just amend the 4” trench line. Depending on the model you can trench really deep. I should have done that for my tomato row!



All that said I ended up building 3 raised beds, tilling about 5” of my native soil up and then filling in the bed. I did one in the style of hugulculture… http://www.farm54.com/blog/hugulculture

That’s another option you could use….

[Lindalana]

Originally Posted by feldon30

So with all this said, I know I need to add substantial amounts of dolomitic lime to the soil to get the pH under control and increase calcium availability. But what about fertilizer?

here is few things the way I understand- clay soil might already have enough Ca, it is bioavailability that is missing. So adding more Ca might not resolve your problem. Adding dolomitic lime is only beneficial if you are also missing Magnesium. I follow the logic where it is not actual Ca but a proper relationship between Ca and Mg that counts most.
Thus there was mentioning to add gypsum- gypsum has sulfur which helps soil to loosen up and allow more minerals to be avail for plants.
Changing pH is rather difficult and often not productive effort.
Ca is very important for plants so applying calcium carbonate at rate of about 10 lbs per 1000 sq f is ok even if you did not test your soil. More dry fert or other ones should be applied after soil test. I do foliar feedings.
Similar to Red Baron, I am cheap and very lazy gardener, so I let worms to do the job, I just pile up free stuff on top of the soil I started with heavy clay soil with poor drainage and now I can dig with my bare hands. It did took few years though. In the meantime piling up leaves, manure, straw, well composted woodchips, growing cover crops is best thing I would be doing.

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by harleysilo

How big a tiller was used assuming that was the piece of machinery with the busted line? The reason i ask is that skid steer shown in the picture is a really small one.

Yes it's the skid steer shown, so not really a large one.

I just know that even dried out, the soil does not crumble. Trying to mix the red clay with amendments... I wouldn't know how to begin unless I a rock crusher to run all the clumps through.

I have a T-shirt "I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally". In case anyone wonders if I am just trying to be difficult...

[JJJessee]

Good T-shirt. :-)

Have you ever heard a cover crop called tillage radish? I'm trying some this winter on the hard end of my row garden to see if it has any effect.

[Blueaussi]

I don't think you're being difficult. Every situation is different, and you have to find the solution that works for you. There's also time, cost, and personal gardening philosophies to consider. I think you have to go into these sort of brainstorming sessions with the realization that you're going to reject most of the ideas offered because they don't fit, but you can still pull out bits and pieces of information that might lead to a solution that will work for you.

And you know, I find sometimes if I am forced to explain exactly what my problem is, and why commenter 4's idea won't work; I understand my problem better, and can find my own solution. Plus, misery loves company, and working with South Carolina red clay is miserable!

[Dutch]

Feldon, What county are you in?

The reason I ask is this; http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/...te/?stateId=SC

Dutch

P.S. I started a new thread for folks to look up their own soil survey by state then county in the Soil- building 101 forum. Might want to sticky that one to give folks a starting point and for future reference.

[Uncle Dunkel]

Gypsum will help your clay along with compost. There are other product available. Im just not allowed to tell you which ones I like best. lol!
Tim

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I have learned much from reading Scott's (Redbaron) posts and I am applying what I can as my gardens mature and my methods evolve. Thanks Scott and I'm glad you took the time to post in this thread. Perhaps one day Feldon's garden can provide a happy environment for worms.
Dutch

Thanks very much for the kind words. But believe me when I say, I have learned every bit as much from others at this website as well. The brilliance of T'ville is that there are so many people here and they all have something to add. The total is far more than the sum of its parts.

Having said all that. I would LOVE to get a crack at feldon's red brick. I am pretty sure I could get it fixed in under 3 years and producing tomatoes first year just by using biology to do the work. It would be hard for me to believe it could be worse than the new leased fields I took on. I mean he talked about equipment blowing a hydraulic line. Well the farmer I leased from last year tried to "help" me by cultivating a part of the field. He didn't blow any hydraulic lines or break any equipment....because his equipment simply bounced off the top! It physically could not penetrate that huge red brick even 1/4 an inch! Like trying to cultivate a concrete parking lot!

I told him to just stop. I would do just fine without tillage.

[Barbee]

You're not being difficult. That red clay is a creature like no other. You can add all sorts of things but getting it to incorporate with your existing soil is the problem. So hmm, rather than using a tiller, I wonder if a sub soiler might work better? OR if you could use Harleysilo's trench method and make trenches 2 ft apart and fill it with your compost/gypsum ...then possibly you could go back the opposite way and end up with a grid system.