Let's talk about Brandywines - Page 3

Sun City Linda · February 5, 2015

And neither am I trying to be argumentative. What do we have, something like 10,000 tomato varieties? I think the market will preserve or not preserve the various names and strains. If someone thinks they have a noticeable improvement they will likely continue to give it a special name and if others see the value and continue to circulate the seed, as has apparently been the case with Cowlicks then maybe that strain or variety will continue. If others don't see the value in it, I assume it will disappear.

Another example may be Old Brooks and Green Brooks. Most sources I have read speculate they are the same tomato but Sandhill lists them both under their respective names. And, as Travis mentioned, Big Ben and Stump. Most people say KBX and Kelloggs are identical save leaf type, but some say KBX has superior taste, taste also being, as Carolyn always reminds us "subjective."

I think I understand what you are saying and as a breeder I get that this is a more scientific process of identification for you than it would be say, for me, or Camo. I agree production is a grey area but when you get a consistently productive Brandywine, my word, that's the Holy Grail of tomatodom !

gssgarden · February 5, 2015

If traits are traits, and they are consistent in EVERY plant, KBX being potato leaf for example compared to KB, then wouldn't Cowlicks HAVE to out produce the similar Brandywine EVERY time? That's if you are going to consider production a trait.

See my point? Kind of? Sort of? Lol

Greg

Sun City Linda · February 5, 2015

Yes, I agree with you in theory Greg but production as we know is often influenced by variables, like weather where as leaf type is leaf type, rain or shine. I have read the long version of Camos experience with Cowlicks and I am remembering that he had several growing seasons going and he continued to grow it with regular Pink Brandywine for comparison.

camochef · February 6, 2015

I try to explain my tomato growing clearly, but in today's world that is almost impossible.
I started growing tomatoes in 1957, not the hundreds that I grow year after year until just recently., but enough to keep a family of 7 children and their parents in all the tomatoes they could eat. Believe me, those brothers and sisters could eat lots of tomatoes back then.
Once I moved to Gettysburg I began to really grow tomatoes. Hundreds each year. The most in any one season was 830 tomato plants. Although most years it was between 250-350 tomato plants. Almost entirely heirlooms.
That first Brandywine, from Cowlick's nursery, was exceptional producing over 100 lbs of tomatoes that 1st year. I admit that it was an exceptional year. I started picking ripe tomatoes on June 27 and continued picking ripe tomatoes daily until the 1st of November. I've never had a year that good since.
I sent the first seeds to a friend in Kansas who claimed his pink Brandywines just didn't produce more than a couple ripe tomatoes/year. He was amazed at the production from the Cowlick's Brandywine and he sent seed to others, in the USA and Europe. Soon we were filling requests from around the world. Cowlicvk's became very popular for the next 8 years or so and has been my most requested seeds.
Lately, I've found German Johnson- Benton Strain to be an even better tasting tomato and even though I've been reducing the size of my gardens the past few years, I've been growing both but dedicating more space to the Benton Strain. Now with an even better tasting Benton Strain X Black P.L. cross topping my taste tests last year, I'm looking forward to growing that one even more. I've also aquired a group of new to me varieties from a dear friend that I'm looking forward to growing as I've been shying away from new varieties the past few years concentrating on my favorites of what I felt were the best tomatoes.
I think I'm done posting about Cowlick's now as it just gets out of hand and most seed available worldwide is no longer true to what I started with anyway. That includes the R.L. that I got back from a grower in Ala, and I thought was even more productive than the original P.L.
I'm glad so many got to enjoy it the past 8 years or so, but I think I'm done sending seeds to anyone
Camo

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

I guess production is too much of a grey area for me to consider it to be a different tomato as well as to name it.
But it is what it is.

drew51 · February 6, 2015

Who cares if it's different or not, the one from Cowlick's you know will produce, so you can still call it Brandywine, we just know what Brandywine it is. Which to me is pretty cool, and important. It's a way to mark the bloodlines of the tomato. I have 3 different sets of seeds of Costoluto Genovese and you know they don't grow the same. . One is from Brokenbar, one from Seeds of Italy (Italian seed company Franchi). and the third is from Tomatofest. So for me the one from Franchi seed company appears to grow best here, the tomatoes are a little smaller. The other two produce fewer, but bigger tomatoes. Not much difference between them. In this variety almost every tomato is a different shape. I have no plans to mark them as different except for my own purposes of comparison. The Brokenbar strain was developed from a hot dry long season climate. Ones that did well were kept. Here it is cool, wet, and a short season. The strain from Italy is doing better here, but the other strains might do better elsewhere. So plants are in a constant state of change and mutation. At certain points, it is better to give them another name to emphasize the shift in traits over time.
It seems to me with Cowlick's enough people have observed better production to at least give it a strain name. Sure it's still a Brandywine, but was bred from a very productive line.
I would not mind some seeds of it!

crazyoldgooseman · February 6, 2015

We love the taste of the suddith's brandywine and we look forward to trying Cowlicks this year.

Bread + Mayo + Tomato = Lunch (for months)

parah · February 6, 2015

Camochef, you know how it is... no good deed goes unpunished.

I am very glad you selected for taste and production and shared your best seeds. I have a beautiful Cowlicks seedling growing now.

And Liz Birt, and Bear, and Amazon Chocolate, more of your excellent suggestions.

I really wish people could simply say "Thank you Camochef!" or choose to be quieter

travis · February 6, 2015

Well, I'm gratified to see that the consensus is I can return to the practice of renaming tomato varieties after discovering "significant" variations from the stereotypical descriptions given ... or after three or four years of selecting toward a particular trait, whether latent or expressed.

Of course when I did this with Indian Zebra, seeds directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer, which showed significant size and shade of darkness differences from the Indian Stripe that had been in the seed market for about a decade, I caught holy hades from a few of the same cult followers who now defend the practice.

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

parah, That was kind of rude wasn't it?

No one here in any way criticized or condemned Camo for what he did. That's not our point. The point that I'm asking is should production be considered a 'strain' of a tomato? We are just using him and Cowlicks as an example because of the thread. What grows well for me, with my practices, my fertilizer regiment, my watering schedule, my amount of sunlight, care, and even talking too, lol, deserve a tomato to get it's own name and be considered a new strain?? My goodness, where would it end?
Look back at my example of low production a few messages back. It's the same thing!

All tomato companies claim to have the biggest, best, best tasting, yada, yada, yada, for sale. If mine are different from the descriptions, and get more or less from what they sell me, do I have a new strain? Nope!

I'm not saying what he did was wrong, I'm not saying what he did was right. I'm trying to make sense of it. That's all.

To suggest people should 'choose to be quieter' in an open forum is wrong. Sorry, my opinion.

Greg

parah · February 6, 2015

Camochef found something he considered exceptional based on decades of experience and he went to a bit of trouble to share it, generously.

I delight in reading Camochef's posts and I wish he would post more. I can understand why he doesn't.

Is 10,000 varieties too much? Never! Maybe someone is growing a Tomato twice as productive and tasty as Cowlicks. I hope they feel that sharing would be appreciated.

Sun City Linda · February 6, 2015

I find Parah's post to be respectful and on target. This is one of several threads I have seen over the years where Camo has been put on the hot seat for 1) saving seeds from what he thought was a superior Brandywine and 2) Giving freely of those seeds under a name specific to the nursery where he found them to all who requested them. I'm having a real hard time understanding who has been damaged by any of this.

Others may not think Camo is being criticized here but he surely seems tired of it; read his last post.

parah · February 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssgarden

parah, That was kind of rude wasn't it?

Greg

If you feel that it was rude, I apologize. It followed your post but was not directed at you, sorry!

What is your favorite Brandywine for flavor and production.
Have you tried Brandywine Croatia? It made the biggest fruit, record holder in my garden.

JJJessee · February 6, 2015

This has been a thought provoking thread. I'm not a tomatologist, and I don't play one on TV.
I was give a Yellow BW plant last year, unsought. My first Brandywine. I set it out early under cover.
I set some early, ugly fruit, quite tasty though. It set more fruit just in time to ripen just before frost.
I'm a BW convert. Production wasn't heavy, but I'll still grow it. And I've got Suddith seed to try.

As far as strains and naming goes, if a plant reproduces a significant, different trait (even if just production levels) and is reproduced demonstrably of over time, various locations, and seasonal variabilty, etc in side by side comparisons. I'm OK calling it a new or different strain. It's just a name, I'm sure the tomato could care less.

I'd like to try a Cowlick beside a Suddith. ;-)
Went to school with a Suddith girl.

gssgarden · February 6, 2015

No one is seeing my point. Obviously you guys like what you like.
I'm sure there are people out there who like Sudduth's more for flavor, or found another Brandywine that produces better.

Maybe you're right, some people should 'choose to be quieter'

Greg

February 5, 2015	#31
Sun City Linda Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: SoCal Inland Posts: 2,705	And neither am I trying to be argumentative. What do we have, something like 10,000 tomato varieties? I think the market will preserve or not preserve the various names and strains. If someone thinks they have a noticeable improvement they will likely continue to give it a special name and if others see the value and continue to circulate the seed, as has apparently been the case with Cowlicks then maybe that strain or variety will continue. If others don't see the value in it, I assume it will disappear. Another example may be Old Brooks and Green Brooks. Most sources I have read speculate they are the same tomato but Sandhill lists them both under their respective names. And, as Travis mentioned, Big Ben and Stump. Most people say KBX and Kelloggs are identical save leaf type, but some say KBX has superior taste, taste also being, as Carolyn always reminds us "subjective." I think I understand what you are saying and as a breeder I get that this is a more scientific process of identification for you than it would be say, for me, or Camo. I agree production is a grey area but when you get a consistently productive Brandywine, my word, that's the Holy Grail of tomatodom ! Last edited by Sun City Linda; February 5, 2015 at 11:31 PM. Reason: spelling

February 6, 2015	#37
crazyoldgooseman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Southern Maryland 7a Posts: 200	We love the taste of the suddith's brandywine and we look forward to trying Cowlicks this year. Bread + Mayo + Tomato = Lunch (for months) __________________ Anybody see where I sat my beer? -crazyoldgooseman

February 6, 2015	#38
parah Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Asia Posts: 152	Camochef, you know how it is... no good deed goes unpunished. I am very glad you selected for taste and production and shared your best seeds. I have a beautiful Cowlicks seedling growing now. And Liz Birt, and Bear, and Amazon Chocolate, more of your excellent suggestions. I really wish people could simply say "Thank you Camochef!" or choose to be quieter Last edited by parah; February 6, 2015 at 10:45 AM.

February 5, 2015	#32
gssgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,827	If traits are traits, and they are consistent in EVERY plant, KBX being potato leaf for example compared to KB, then wouldn't Cowlicks HAVE to out produce the similar Brandywine EVERY time? That's if you are going to consider production a trait. See my point? Kind of? Sort of? Lol Greg

February 6, 2015	#34
camochef Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 707	I try to explain my tomato growing clearly, but in today's world that is almost impossible. I started growing tomatoes in 1957, not the hundreds that I grow year after year until just recently., but enough to keep a family of 7 children and their parents in all the tomatoes they could eat. Believe me, those brothers and sisters could eat lots of tomatoes back then. Once I moved to Gettysburg I began to really grow tomatoes. Hundreds each year. The most in any one season was 830 tomato plants. Although most years it was between 250-350 tomato plants. Almost entirely heirlooms. That first Brandywine, from Cowlick's nursery, was exceptional producing over 100 lbs of tomatoes that 1st year. I admit that it was an exceptional year. I started picking ripe tomatoes on June 27 and continued picking ripe tomatoes daily until the 1st of November. I've never had a year that good since. I sent the first seeds to a friend in Kansas who claimed his pink Brandywines just didn't produce more than a couple ripe tomatoes/year. He was amazed at the production from the Cowlick's Brandywine and he sent seed to others, in the USA and Europe. Soon we were filling requests from around the world. Cowlicvk's became very popular for the next 8 years or so and has been my most requested seeds. Lately, I've found German Johnson- Benton Strain to be an even better tasting tomato and even though I've been reducing the size of my gardens the past few years, I've been growing both but dedicating more space to the Benton Strain. Now with an even better tasting Benton Strain X Black P.L. cross topping my taste tests last year, I'm looking forward to growing that one even more. I've also aquired a group of new to me varieties from a dear friend that I'm looking forward to growing as I've been shying away from new varieties the past few years concentrating on my favorites of what I felt were the best tomatoes. I think I'm done posting about Cowlick's now as it just gets out of hand and most seed available worldwide is no longer true to what I started with anyway. That includes the R.L. that I got back from a grower in Ala, and I thought was even more productive than the original P.L. I'm glad so many got to enjoy it the past 8 years or so, but I think I'm done sending seeds to anyone Camo

February 6, 2015	#36
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	Who cares if it's different or not, the one from Cowlick's you know will produce, so you can still call it Brandywine, we just know what Brandywine it is. Which to me is pretty cool, and important. It's a way to mark the bloodlines of the tomato. I have 3 different sets of seeds of Costoluto Genovese and you know they don't grow the same. . One is from Brokenbar, one from Seeds of Italy (Italian seed company Franchi). and the third is from Tomatofest. So for me the one from Franchi seed company appears to grow best here, the tomatoes are a little smaller. The other two produce fewer, but bigger tomatoes. Not much difference between them. In this variety almost every tomato is a different shape. I have no plans to mark them as different except for my own purposes of comparison. The Brokenbar strain was developed from a hot dry long season climate. Ones that did well were kept. Here it is cool, wet, and a short season. The strain from Italy is doing better here, but the other strains might do better elsewhere. So plants are in a constant state of change and mutation. At certain points, it is better to give them another name to emphasize the shift in traits over time. It seems to me with Cowlick's enough people have observed better production to at least give it a strain name. Sure it's still a Brandywine, but was bred from a very productive line. I would not mind some seeds of it!

February 6, 2015	#39
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Well, I'm gratified to see that the consensus is I can return to the practice of renaming tomato varieties after discovering "significant" variations from the stereotypical descriptions given ... or after three or four years of selecting toward a particular trait, whether latent or expressed. Of course when I did this with Indian Zebra, seeds directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer, which showed significant size and shade of darkness differences from the Indian Stripe that had been in the seed market for about a decade, I caught holy hades from a few of the same cult followers who now defend the practice.

February 6, 2015	#44
JJJessee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Abingdon, Va Posts: 184	This has been a thought provoking thread. I'm not a tomatologist, and I don't play one on TV. I was give a Yellow BW plant last year, unsought. My first Brandywine. I set it out early under cover. I set some early, ugly fruit, quite tasty though. It set more fruit just in time to ripen just before frost. I'm a BW convert. Production wasn't heavy, but I'll still grow it. And I've got Suddith seed to try. As far as strains and naming goes, if a plant reproduces a significant, different trait (even if just production levels) and is reproduced demonstrably of over time, various locations, and seasonal variabilty, etc in side by side comparisons. I'm OK calling it a new or different strain. It's just a name, I'm sure the tomato could care less. I'd like to try a Cowlick beside a Suddith. ;-) Went to school with a Suddith girl.