Comparisons: Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe

[seaeagle]

Has this tomato been talked about?I don't remember seeing it, but I don't see every post here.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...an_Stripe_Plus

I am assuming from the description(This is a selection from Indian Stripe made for 4 yrs by Bill Jeffers of Indiana for earliest and largest fruit.) and from earlier reading in this thread that this is best of the Indian Stripe grow outs obtained from Victory Seeds or is this the tomato from Clyde Burson's freezer?

Indian Zebra doesn't seem to exist anymore at the tomatobase or did it ever, just a blank page now.

[travis]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Has this tomato been talked about?I don't remember seeing it, but I don't see every post here.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...an_Stripe_Plus

I am assuming from the description(This is a selection from Indian Stripe made for 4 yrs by Bill Jeffers of Indiana for earliest and largest fruit.) and from earlier reading in this thread that this is best of the Indian Stripe grow outs obtained from Victory Seeds or is this the tomato from Clyde Burson's freezer?

Indian Zebra doesn't seem to exist anymore at the tomatobase or did it ever, just a blank page now.

As I mentioned in my first post earlier in this thread, I first grew Indian Stripe in 2006 from seeds I purchased from Victory Seed Co, seed packed in 2005, assumed to have been grown by Victory in 2004 or 2005 ... whatever their protocol is.

I did not mention that I grew 10 plants in a single row. From those 10 plants, I got variable results. One plant gave pink fruit. The rest gave the anticipated purple fruit, but some plants were more productive, one plant produced larger fruit of a more even shape. Another plant was productive but gave slightly smaller fruit sometimes a little lumpy.

I saved the seeds only from those two plants ... the two best examples.

For the following two years, I continued to grow out three or four plants of each type, keeping them segregated as "Indian Stripe A" and "Indian Stripe B." Each line had its own great set of characteristics, although they were very similar, with one consistently slightly larger, smoother fruit, and the other slightly smaller, occasionally lumpy fruit. I sent seeds to Susan Anderson of the smoother type which you see on the Tomatobase called "Plus."

Again, they originated from Victory Seed Company's seed lot.

It is unfortunate that Tatiana has removed Indian Zebra from the Tomatobase. All this could've been clarified easily for any intelligent person to comprehend without the confusion feared by some.

It's really quite simple. Clyde Burson, Jr. sent me seeds from his father's freezer a few months after Clyde Burson, Sr. passed away. Clyde Jr. sent several varieties, one of which was labled, in handwritten pencil, on a folded paper packet, "Indian Zebra."

Along with the gift of seeds, Clyde Jr. sent a message which included his statement that he had never heard his father refer to this tomato as anything other than Indian Zebra.

I asked Clyde Jr. if he knew Donna Nelson, and he said yes, that she had grown up down the road from his family in Strong, Arkansas, and had moved to Texas.

I do not doubt that Donna Nelson told Carolyn Male that Clyde Sr. had said the tomato had been called alternately Indian Stripe AND Indian Zebra. I could care less, for that matter, if someone were to pop up from another town in South Arkansas or North Louisiana and claim their family called it Indian Lighting or Indian Tiger. But thank goodness, for the sake of those susceptible to instantaneous befuddlement, that has not yet happened

My disappointment with regard to the removal of Indian Zebra from the Tomatobase is that there were photographs of the resulting larger, darker fruit I and others got from the seed batch sent directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer. I think that is important ... more important than "avoiding confusion" ... but after a series of these discussions, I gave in to "the greater good" after recognizing how easily some people become confused.

Enjoy growing generic Indian Stripe! It's a great tomato by any name!

[travis]

Originally Posted by Al@NC

Thanks Carolyn, I guess I took for granted how young Daniel Burson is. I did a search online and came up with the link below. In the IDig link the comment was made that it was a better tomato than Daniels back in '13. I didn't know if others felt the same way.

I'm planning on growing IS [RL], [PL], and heart this summer along with Daniels but after reading a few comments here and there I began questioning if I was wasting my time and if I should just go ahead and get Daniel Burson (awaiting your seed offer) instead but I think I might add Daniel Burson to the growout and see for myself!

IDig link

Thanks,
Al

The Daniels tomato is an excellent, fully stable, productive, very tasty tomato.

The Daniel Burson tomato carries some of the same characteristics, only merged with other characteristics from the Indian Stripe parent.

[Al@NC]

Thanks Travis, I have seed that is being called Indian Zebra also so I'm anxious to see how it all shakes out this new season....


Al

[kath]

Fwiw, I grew Indian Stripe for several seasons from different sources and found that every time it had a tendency for lots of stem forking and producing lots of lumpy fruits of medium size on a shorter plant. I kept looking for different sources hoping to get the larger, smoother, darker fruits I'd seen pictured here. The taste was very good and my neighbor fell in love with it and I still grow plants for her every year from seeds that originally came from Bill Jeffers. Last year I grew Indian Zebra from Diane' Seeds as a result of Travis' posts and it produced taller indeterminate plants that bore loads of larger, rounder, darker, smoother fruits without a lot of forking. The taste was great and it will be in my garden from now on.

As for Daniel Burson, I think it tastes great, produces well and quite early but grey mold is a big problem for me with all the darks. Last year I had to pull DB before July because of it. The afore-mentioned neighbor loves this one also and hasn't given up on it yet despite this drawback. This season I'll be growing it again from seeds shared by a kind Tomatovillian who says hers isn't bothered much by disease because I do love the taste...fingers crossed.

As far as date of maturity, last season was early here because of the warm spring in, but from a 3/3 sowing, the first 2 Daniel Burson fruits were eaten on 6/24 and 3 more were ready by 6/29. The first Indian Zebra fruit was ready on 6/23 and 10 more by 7/1.

Hope this encourages Al and others to give all of these varieties a try in their conditions.

To address the original thread, in 2010, I grew Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe along with about 150 other varieties but didn't keep detailed records about production, weight, etc. All plants were pruned to ~ 2 stems on stakes. I shared labeled fruits along with a key with several neighbors who taste tested and kept notes all season to determine their favorites. Cherokee Purple had the prettiest fruits, followed by Spudakee but Indian Stripe was my favorite taste of the 3. JD's, Amazon Chocolate and Indian Stripe (in that order) were my top darks (taste-wise) and returned the following year to go up against more darks. One neighbor liked Indian Stripe and Gary O but only requested plants of IS the next year. A second neighbor liked Cherokee Purple best but was also a fan of Spudakee, Amazon Chocolate, Black Krim and Gary O). The third neighbor liked JD's but none of the other 3 made her top 6 that year.

kath

[Al@NC]

Thanks Kath!
I obtained my Zebra seeds from Dianes seeds and it looks/reads great!



That is also where I obtained IS. I'm hoping to get smooth IS fruit as well...

[kath]

Originally Posted by Al@NC

Thanks Kath!
I obtained my Zebra seeds from Dianes seeds and it looks/reads great!



That is also where I obtained IS. I'm hoping to get smooth IS fruit as well...

Reading your post made me realize my mistake, in that my seeds for IZ also came from Diane's!At least I was still able to correct it.

That's a great looking IS fruit! I'll have to see if I can find one of mine...not so pretty!

Hmmm...seems 2012 was a good IS year. Have to eat my words because post # 65 shows lots of pretty fruits and no cat-facing. In the end, I just liked other darks better.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ipe#post298596

[seaeagle]

Thank you Travis for that excellent explanation.If the Indian Zebra page had still been up it would have avoided the confusion and I wouldn't have had to ask.

IMO removing the Indian Zebra page was WRONG and i could fill up a whole page here on why, but I will leave it at that.

If I were starting over I would get the Indian Zebra or Indian Stripe Plus rather than go through the trial and error process a lot seem to have to go through.After all Clyde Burson probably selected the best of the best for 50 years and those seeds would be in his freezer.

And the argument from the other side would be that the Indian Stripe seeds came directly from Clyde Burson's garden.But as almost all home gardeners know and practice, you don't give away your best tomatoes to a nosy relative of some neighbors down the road.

I guess I'm in enough trouble so i think I will stop

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Thank you Travis for that excellent explanation.If the Indian Zebra page had still been up it would have avoided the confusion and I wouldn't have had to ask.

IMO removing the Indian Zebra page was WRONG and i could fill up a whole page here on why, but I will leave it at that.

If I were starting over I would get the Indian Zebra or Indian Stripe Plus rather than go through the trial and error process a lot seem to have to go through.After all Clyde Burson probably selected the best of the best for 50 years and those seeds would be in his freezer.

And the argument from the other side would be that the Indian Stripe seeds came directly from Clyde Burson's garden.But as almost all home gardeners know and practice, you don't give away your best tomatoes to a nosy relative of some neighbors down the road.

I guess I'm in enough trouble so i think I will stop

Nosy relative of neighbors down the road?

Donna Nelson was not a nosy neighbor. She is about the same age as Burson Jr and every time Donna and her DH went there they visited back and forth.And also being a tomato lover also visited Burson Sr's garden and also knew him very well.

How did I know Donna? She and I and several others participated at the AOL tomato forum years ago and one year it was decided to take pictures of our gardens on the 4th of July and for that we formed a group of about 15 folks, apart from the AOL forum itself, and all these years later those who remained in the group are still in touch/ I bowed out when it came to too much talk about non gardening issues, but still have the e-mail addresses of all of them.

Why did Tania not list Indian Zebra? When she was medically able to she posted at several message sites and idig was one and she saw all the back and forth threads about IS and IZ that were being disussed at the time, as Travis can confirm.

As far as I know it was Tania's decision to do what she did since I know I didn't say anything to her about it and I don't know that anyone did. Tania is a very strong minded person and has spent many years accumulating the data she now has for over 4,000 varieties. Some of thepages havenot been updated as new information comes along and one I know well is the Huevos de Toro/ Couilles D Taureau page and there are others.

Burson saving the best of the best for 50 years? I doubt it very much b'c back then I don't know of anyone who sequentially made selections like that.

Why were seeds labeled IZ the only ones found in the freezer? I don't think anyone knows that, maybe the IS labeled ones had been used up, but BursonSr told Donna that he called it either IS or IZ, and I know Donna very well, and trust that she relayed the information correctly to me.

In addition, when the arguments about IS IZ were ongoing I asked Donna to come to both idig and Tville to confirm what had happened and confirm what she told me/ She did. And Travis can confirm that she did indeed come to both idig and Tville about that as well.

Carolyn

[b54red]

Kath, as someone who has had gray mold problems from the first season I grew the dark or black tomatoes I have found a couple of things that will help control it. First is to keep the lower leaves trimmed off and have a good mulch under the plant. Second is to keep it pruned so the plant receives as much air and sunshine as possible. Third is to use a copper spray every week or so to help in prevention. And most important of all is to use the diluted bleach spray as soon as you see the first sign of gray mold and then prune the withered stems and leaves a day or two later and repeat the bleach spray.

The only time I ever lose a plant to gray mold now is if I quit taking care of it as I described above or if we have constant rain and drizzle for a month or more. Even then I don't lose many because I use the bleach spray every week between rains to keep the damage to a minimum.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...t=bleach+spray

Bill

[kath]

Originally Posted by b54red

Kath, as someone who has had gray mold problems from the first season I grew the dark or black tomatoes I have found a couple of things that will help control it. First is to keep the lower leaves trimmed off and have a good mulch under the plant. Second is to keep it pruned so the plant receives as much air and sunshine as possible. Third is to use a copper spray every week or so to help in prevention. And most important of all is to use the diluted bleach spray as soon as you see the first sign of gray mold and then prune the withered stems and leaves a day or two later and repeat the bleach spray.

The only time I ever lose a plant to gray mold now is if I quit taking care of it as I described above or if we have constant rain and drizzle for a month or more. Even then I don't lose many because I use the bleach spray every week between rains to keep the damage to a minimum.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...t=bleach+spray

Bill

Thanks, Bill. I do follow your 1st and 2nd suggestions, but I've never sprayed with copper or bleach. Maybe I'll try to motivate myself to do that one of these years when I have fewer plants. So far, with as many plants as I grow each season, at least one dark survives until the end of the season to supply us with what we need.

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Nosy relative of neighbors down the road?

Donna Nelson was not a nosy neighbor. She is about the same age as Burson Jr and every time Donna and her DH went there they visited back and forth.And also being a tomato lover also visited Burson Sr's garden and also knew him very well.

How did I know Donna? She and I and several others participated at the AOL tomato forum years ago and one year it was decided to take pictures of our gardens on the 4th of July and for that we formed a group of about 15 folks, apart from the AOL forum itself, and all these years later those who remained in the group are still in touch/ I bowed out when it came to too much talk about non gardening issues, but still have the e-mail addresses of all of them.

Why did Tania not list Indian Zebra? When she was medically able to she posted at several message sites and idig was one and she saw all the back and forth threads about IS and IZ that were being disussed at the time, as Travis can confirm.

As far as I know it was Tania's decision to do what she did since I know I didn't say anything to her about it and I don't know that anyone did. Tania is a very strong minded person and has spent many years accumulating the data she now has for over 4,000 varieties. Some of thepages havenot been updated as new information comes along and one I know well is the Huevos de Toro/ Couilles D Taureau page and there are others.

Burson saving the best of the best for 50 years? I doubt it very much b'c back then I don't know of anyone who sequentially made selections like that.

Why were seeds labeled IZ the only ones found in the freezer? I don't think anyone knows that, maybe the IS labeled ones had been used up, but BursonSr told Donna that he called it either IS or IZ, and I know Donna very well, and trust that she relayed the information correctly to me.

In addition, when the arguments about IS IZ were ongoing I asked Donna to come to both idig and Tville to confirm what had happened and confirm what she told me/ She did. And Travis can confirm that she did indeed come to both idig and Tville about that as well.

Carolyn

Well you know more about these two family's than I do, so maybe they were close friends and all.I know nothing about them, I was just speaking in general, not referring to anyone in particular

Do I think Clyde Burson saved his best seeds for 50 years?Yes I do.It is a natural human instinct and humans have been saving and selecting the best seeds from their best plants for thousands and thousands of years.

As for the Indian Zebra being removed from the tomato base website, hopefully it is just being updated and if it is , my apologies to the owner.If it has been removed I still say it is wrong, but its her site and she can do with it what she wants.But I can also have my opinion and my opinion is that you just cant delete history just because you don't agree with it or it doesn't fit someone's agenda

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Well you know more about these two family's than I do, so maybe they were close friends and all.I know nothing about them, I was just speaking in general, not referring to anyone in particular

Do I think Clyde Burson saved his best seeds for 50 years?Yes I do.It is a natural human instinct and humans have been saving and selecting the best seeds from their best plants for thousands and thousands of years.

As for the Indian Zebra being removed from the tomato base website, hopefully it is just being updated and if it is , my apologies to the owner.If it has been removed I still say it is wrong, but its her site and she can do with it what she wants.But I can also have my opinion and my opinion is that you just cant delete history just because you don't agree with it or it doesn't fit someone's agenda

There's lots I could say about your above post but will make only one comment..Indian Zebra was not removed, as you said above, from Tania's site for it never was listed as such.

Carolyn

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

There's lots I could say about your above post but will make only one comment..Indian Zebra was not removed, as you said above, from Tania's site for it never was listed as such.

Carolyn

Well, I have to say that I have never seen the page if and when it ever had anything on it.

Here is what I said in an earlier post "Indian Zebra doesn't seem to exist anymore at the tomatobase or did it ever, just a blank page now. " So it is possible that Travis misunderstood and thought I said it had been removed.

And when Travis wrote this in his next post "It is unfortunate that Tatiana has removed Indian Zebra from the Tomatobase. All this could've been clarified easily for any intelligent person to comprehend without the confusion feared by some." So I took this to mean maybe wrongly so that there used to be a page there.

Anyway it could be a misunderstanding.The only way to know is to wait and see what Travis says.

But this is what I do know, if you click on this link it takes you to a page with India Zebra listed at the top of the page with nothing on it.So it was listed on the site at one time or it had its own page.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Zebra

Even if it was never anything on it I think it should be, to clarify the situation because like it or not the India Zebra name is out there and has a following and being sold as such by several seed vendors.And even the seed vendors have seen the difference between the two tomatoes in question.

[Gardeneer]

As I recall from discussion in other threads, IS was originally called IZ. I think Carolyn was the one who explained the history.
So then, MAYBE, that is the reason for Tania blanking out the IZ page.

@ Alan,
You took very nice picture and I like what I see. I'll be growing IS this year. I am in Redmond WA area.
Gardeneer