Harvest time for tomatoes then should ideally occur when..."

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Splitting can take place even after a tomato is picked IF it has a thin skin.
The next time pic a ripe thin skin tomato before the rain and leave it outside in the rain and sun. I have observed this to happen to ripe SunGold tomatoes.

This was in a tunnel. No rain ever touched them.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by imp

For me, unless there is a need to pick earlier than full ripe, I'll be waiting to pick- but that is simply my personal preference. Each person will do as they think is best for themselves.

Even though I am thoroughly convinced that leaving fruit on the vine until table ripe is best for taste under ideal conditions, I often pick early because conditions are often not ideal. So I am 100% in agreement that people should do what they deem best. All things in life involve tradeoffs, and getting a tomato that is almost as good as its potential would have been under ideal conditions is better IMO than not getting a tomato at all due to pest damage or weather damage.

My issue is when people assure newbies that picking any time after mature green DEFINITELY has no detrimental effect on taste because the fruit is DEFINITELY "sealed off" from the plant at that point. We know that both of these things is objectively untrue. We also know that, even if many people cannot taste the difference in real-life, imperfect conditions when you can't do a completely 100% controlled comparison.

So I simply advocate for not giving people the impression of certainty where there is none. Let them experiment on their own and make their own calculations and decisions, but give them the correct information.

[NarnianGarden]

This morning I had the 'control' tomato for breakfast, it was left in the vine a few days more than the first one. While this survived some rainy days and nights, I would say that yes, the taste was better, fresher and juicier than the one picked underripe.

However, I have also eaten plenty of fruits that were picked unripe, and many of them developed delicious flavor indoors. So, it's all a case by case scenario, I believe.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

This morning I had the 'control' tomato for breakfast, it was left in the vine a few days more than the first one. While this survived some rainy days and nights, I would say that yes, the taste was better, fresher and juicier than the one picked underripe.

However, I have also eaten plenty of fruits that were picked unripe, and many of them developed delicious flavor indoors. So, it's all a case by case scenario, I believe.

I can taste the difference in the tomatoes on the same truss of slicers. The 2 closer to the stem are more flavorful. If the truss has five or six fruit, I'll throw the bottom tomato away.

[bower]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

This morning I had the 'control' tomato for breakfast, it was left in the vine a few days more than the first one. While this survived some rainy days and nights, I would say that yes, the taste was better, fresher and juicier than the one picked underripe.

However, I have also eaten plenty of fruits that were picked unripe, and many of them developed delicious flavor indoors. So, it's all a case by case scenario, I believe.

I agree with the case by case scenario. I think some varieties suffer more (even a lot!) when they're picked before day 3, and are also best eaten the same day as picked, not rested for a day or whatever. But even that might vary depending on the time of year.
And we haven't even talked about, when is the best degree of ripeness to eat them! This makes all the difference for some, and really depends on the variety.

Whether or not the ripening tomato receives something from the plant doesn't matter, isn't necessary for there to be a difference between indoor and outdoor ripened. Think about the temperature differences between day and night - I mean, here there is a significant day/night difference outdoors while indoor temperature barely drops a bit at night and isn't as hot in the day either. Since enzymes etc involved in ripening process are affected by temperature, at minimum it would affect the rate of ripening.
And we know rate of ripening does vary depending on the variety. Some ripen crazy fast and go directly to mush if you don't snatch and eat on command! Others ripen sooo sloooowly you could be poking it on the counter for weeks after picking day 5, just wondering when......

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by bower

I agree with the case by case scenario. I think some varieties suffer more (even a lot!) when they're picked before day 3, and are also best eaten the same day as picked, not rested for a day or whatever. But even that might vary depending on the time of year.
And we haven't even talked about, when is the best degree of ripeness to eat them! This makes all the difference for some, and really depends on the variety.

Whether or not the ripening tomato receives something from the plant doesn't matter, isn't necessary for there to be a difference between indoor and outdoor ripened. Think about the temperature differences between day and night - I mean, here there is a significant day/night difference outdoors while indoor temperature barely drops a bit at night and isn't as hot in the day either. Since enzymes etc involved in ripening process are affected by temperature, at minimum it would affect the rate of ripening.
And we know rate of ripening does vary depending on the variety. Some ripen crazy fast and go directly to mush if you don't snatch and eat on command! Others ripen sooo sloooowly you could be poking it on the counter for weeks after picking day 5, just wondering when......

Here is the case:
The plant supplies the same material to the fruits from early on. That is the nutrient in a water or other bio chemical solution base.
I doubt it very much that the formula changes other than by dilution from moisture intake by the plant.
If that theory (my understanding ) is true, then the process of ripening takes place withing the fruit itself. Enzyme action ? Bio-chemical ?
Here is the take: when the fruit size reaches its full size, it will not get any bigger. That is governed by genetics and growing conditions. This further implies that it won't be receiving anything anymore from the plant. So what difference does it make if it hangs off the vine or sits on the counter ? The difference might be due to the temperatures and the relative humidity, causing dehydration at varied rate. This may affect the taste. Or heat might affect the enzyme action. But at any event the plant should not be playing a role.

Splitting through too much water intake ? That is hard to believe. How much stuff (BY VOLUME) can get via that woody stem , over night , to cause an increase in volume to such a degree that the fruit will burst because of it ? two drop ?
JMO

[bower]

Gardeneer, it is definitely the case that all the ripening process takes place within the fruit itself. I have read about it, and it's all about processes that convert one thing into another, within the fruit, as far as I know from what i read.

So you're right that the mature fruit is not taking up something from the plant, like sugars or volatiles or any of those taste things. Those are being made on site inside the fruit, with the goods that are already there. So the question is, how is that process affected by being on or off the vine. And the answer is, something that affects the enzyme or process could affect it. Temperature regime. Ethylene levels in the environment, we know that affects it. And why a green ripe fruit may ripen quicker or better in a paper bag.

As for the water I don't know. Osmotic pressure is a delicate thing. If the plant sucks up a lot of water, it can cause fruit to burst. Lots of people have also observed that the taste can be 'watered down' if the plants are overwatered.
Just from that perspective, you would expect a better taste by picking the fruit when it blushes, at least if it's before you overwater the plant.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Here is the take: when the fruit size reaches its full size, it will not get any bigger. That is governed by genetics and growing conditions. This further implies that it won't be receiving anything anymore from the plant. So what difference does it make if it hangs off the vine or sits on the counter ? The difference might be due to the temperatures and the relative humidity, causing dehydration at varied rate. This may affect the taste. Or heat might affect the enzyme action. But at any event the plant should not be playing a role.

Transpiration continues through the fruit. Also, tomatoes are one of those fruits that have backflow of fluids to the plant. If fluids are coming in, and fluids are going back out, it's entirely possible that compounds that contribute to taste, aroma, and color are being left behind during this exchange.

Also, the difference could go beyond sugars, etc. coming in to the tomato. There could be continued signaling of some sort between the plant and the fruit that affects the final outcome of ripening.

The fact is, we don't know, so we shouldn't claim any finality and mislead people b telling them that for sure the plant does not matter at all after mature green. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that this could be incorrect and that there is plenty of doubt around this question.

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Splitting through too much water intake ? That is hard to believe. How much stuff (BY VOLUME) can get via that woody stem , over night , to cause an increase in volume to such a degree that the fruit will burst because of it ? two drop ?
JMO

If you believe the "woody" stem is incapable of transmitting fluid, how do you reconcile that with your belief that the volume of water required to produce splitting after rain is through leakage through the joint of that same "woody" stem, without any hydraulic pressure at all?

Since there is continued influx of fluids into the fruit AND backflow of fluids out of the fruit back into the plant while it remains on the plant, I think Occam's razor is in effect here. The simple explanation is that splitting is caused when the volume of water coming in exceeds the capacity of the backflow mechanism, as during heavy and sudden rain, the exact conditions under which ripening fruit splits.

Originally Posted by bower

Gardeneer, it is definitely the case that all the ripening process takes place within the fruit itself.

Just because ripening is a process that takes place within the fruit itself doesn't mean that additional input from the plant after ripening has been initiated has no effect on the final result.

Studies show that people *can* detect a difference between tomatoes picked at mature green or breaker and ripened in exactly the same conditions as fruit left on the vine. They prefer the fruit ripened on the vine. Other studies show differences in color between tomatoes picked after mature green and ripened off the plant in the same exact conditions as those ripened on the plant. Differences in color mean difference in carotene and lycopene contents. There's a study that shows that tomatoes picked at breaker and ripened off the vine have only 70% as much ascorbic acid as those taken to table-ripe on the vine.

As I have said, I don't think normal life presents such controlled circumstances, and people have very different levels of sensitivity when it comes to taste and smell. So I'm not trying at all to say that picking tomatoes early is an inferior practice. I'm just saying that, for some people with some varieties under some conditions, there's almost certainly a real difference in the fruit when they pick it early and ripen inside--a difference that may very well be totally worth it when the trade-offs are considered... or not, depending on one's priorities.

What I object to is the misleading certainty with which so many people tell new growers that picking early produces exactly the same results as picking at table-ripe. I, for one, will continue to suggest picking early as a good option when there are pest and weather pressures, and I honestly do think that a tomato that has reached at least 50% of its full color is probably going to have an almost undetectable difference for most people (breaker or mature green is a different issue, IMO--I find that tomatoes picked at breaker or mature green really don't taste as good to me). But I'm not going to assure people that their tomatoes will taste exactly the same if picked early or that the plant has no further role in the final taste, flavor, and nutrition of a ripened tomato after mature green is reached because we don't actually know that and there is plenty of evidence that this may not be the case.

[Hellmanns]

I love growing tomatoes! I would call what I do a passion for production and flavor. I only pick full colored and vine ripened fruit for my customers. My business came about because I hated to see so many tomatoes go to waste early in my endeavors - not for monetary gain.

I've grown a lot of tomatoes over the years, too. Tons and tons of ripe fruit to deal with. It is actually bittersweet to me when fruit begins ripening, as I then have to change into the person who has to deal with people to sell the burden of fruit. I get my "fix" from watching the plants grow, and tasting the fruit, not sitting in a parking lot trying to coax someone to buy my product, I hate that! My customers convinced me to sell my tomatoes early on, not the other way around..

Anyhoo, I learned about growing in tunnels on my own, before I knew what an "Internet's" was. I learned that I could get earlier fruit, better fruit, and way less disease pressure, plus, I could extend the season!

Here is another thing I have noticed over the years. On indeterminate plants, the fruit ripening is progressive, from bottom cluster progressing upwards as fruit and clusters mature. But, sometimes, the plant would skip ripening a fruit to "vine ripe" on a lower cluster. Most times it would be a single fruit that would just blush to pink and remain there over several pickings not turning vine ripe like its cluster mates. This fruit if picked never had the full flavor of its cluster mates, and if picked would never have the flavor, or ripen to the beautiful color and shine of true vine ripened fruit. I used to just leave these tomatoes hanging there because they were of no use to me.

Here is an observation I made a few years back.. Those lackluster fruit would hang there for weeks while the harvest progressed. But, once the huge load of fruit was removed from the plant, these tomatoes would start to ripen. When they were ripe, maybe two weeks from the time the other fruit from that cluster were removed, they were tasty and full flavored, just like their mates that were picked earlier! I've witnessed this over and over through the years.

If the plant stops providing anything to fruit once the fruit matures, and the pedicel seals the fruit from anything more, then what I have observed for years is unexplained.

[Hellmanns]

Originally Posted by gorbelly

Transpiration continues through the fruit. Also, tomatoes are one of those fruits that have backflow of fluids to the plant. If fluids are coming in, and fluids are going back out, it's entirely possible that compounds that contribute to taste, aroma, and color are being left behind during this exchange.

Also, the difference could go beyond sugars, etc. coming in to the tomato. There could be continued signaling of some sort between the plant and the fruit that affects the final outcome of ripening.

The fact is, we don't know, so we shouldn't claim any finality and mislead people b telling them that for sure the plant does not matter at all after mature green. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that this could be incorrect and that there is plenty of doubt around this question.



If you believe the "woody" stem is incapable of transmitting fluid, how do you reconcile that with your belief that the volume of water required to produce splitting after rain is through leakage through the joint of that same "woody" stem, without any hydraulic pressure at all?

Since there is continued influx of fluids into the fruit AND backflow of fluids out of the fruit back into the plant while it remains on the plant, I think Occam's razor is in effect here. The simple explanation is that splitting is caused when the volume of water coming in exceeds the capacity of the backflow mechanism, as during heavy and sudden rain, the exact conditions under which ripening fruit splits.



Just because ripening is a process that takes place within the fruit itself doesn't mean that additional input from the plant after ripening has been initiated has no effect on the final result.

Studies show that people *can* detect a difference between tomatoes picked at mature green or breaker and ripened in exactly the same conditions as fruit left on the vine. They prefer the fruit ripened on the vine. Other studies show differences in color between tomatoes picked after mature green and ripened off the plant in the same exact conditions as those ripened on the plant. Differences in color mean difference in carotene and lycopene contents. There's a study that shows that tomatoes picked at breaker and ripened off the vine have only 70% as much ascorbic acid as those taken to table-ripe on the vine.

As I have said, I don't think normal life presents such controlled circumstances, and people have very different levels of sensitivity when it comes to taste and smell. So I'm not trying at all to say that picking tomatoes early is an inferior practice. I'm just saying that, for some people with some varieties under some conditions, there's almost certainly a real difference in the fruit when they pick it early and ripen inside--a difference that may very well be totally worth it when the trade-offs are considered... or not, depending on one's priorities.

What I object to is the misleading certainty with which so many people tell new growers that picking early produces exactly the same results as picking at table-ripe. I, for one, will continue to suggest picking early as a good option when there are pest and weather pressures, and I honestly do think that a tomato that has reached at least 50% of its full color is probably going to have an almost undetectable difference for most people (breaker or mature green is a different issue, IMO--I find that tomatoes picked at breaker or mature green really don't taste as good to me). But I'm not going to assure people that their tomatoes will taste exactly the same if picked early or that the plant has no further role in the final taste, flavor, and nutrition of a ripened tomato after mature green is reached because we don't actually know that and there is plenty of evidence that this may not be the case.

You are spot on with my observances over the years! I love flavor, and have the taste buds to detect subtle differences.

[NarnianGarden]

Interesting obsevations from you all.
I don't know much of the tomato anatomy and the metabolism, but I do know that this year almost everything tastes watered down.

Rain is great for the mushroom harvest (I haven't picked any of those yet), but it does have very dampening effect on berries and tomatoes.
Even when the tomatoe plants are under a roof, the humidity and lack of sunshine gets them...
But not complaining, drought isn't good either.. Ten years ago it was so dry that even swamps dried up. A great opportunity to walk and hike in the nature with no need for boots, but many lawns got scorched in the heat and shriveled up (we do not usually water our yards and lawns, since nature is supposed to take care of that..)

[bower]

Drat, I've now missed my date with the wheelbarrow this morning since it's already started to rain, while pondering and googling to find some actual studies about this. Oh well.

Lots of studies about it, try google for "tomato harvest taste Kader 1977" or similar to get a list. The work by Kader and others around that time is seminal and cited by others so should also bring up more recent work.
ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/datastore/234-526.pdf
Some quotes:
"Picking tomatoes before they are table-ripe has an impact on their sugar and acid content at the table-ripe stage and this is clearly implicated as one of the reasons for variation in flavor quality relative to fruits harvested table-ripe. The results indicate that changes in acidity affect sweetness, sourness and overall flavor intensity while a change in sugars influences sweetness, primarily, and overall intensity."
"There is little doubt that fruits picked at earlier stages of ripeness have an "off-flavor" defect whose intensity varies among cultivars".
This was a nice study that used a taste panel to score the tomatoes and also did a chemical analysis of the other half of the same tomato, to look for correlations between sensory attributes and chemical composition.
If you read and look at the data figures, you'll see that the major difference in taste is between immature green/breaker harvested fruit, vs the table ripe stage. In between stages "light pink" and "dark pink" had some equivocal data with dark pink scoring higher than table ripe, but overall I think the obvious conclusion is the closer you can get to table ripe picking, the better chance of having an optimal taste experience.
Secondly, we know there are good reasons to harvest early sometimes - and that includes pest/critter and disease pressures, and temperature extremes. How to optimize the results if you have to harvest early?
A second reference reviewing work on all aspects of taste and post-harvest treatments:
ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/datastore/234-213.pdf
Some quotes:
"Postharvest losses in quality and quantity are related to immaturity at harvest, inadequate initial quality control, incidence and severity of physical damage, exposure to improper temperatures, and delays between harvest and consumption. Shortening the time between harvest and consumption can minimize loss of the characteristic tomato aroma and development of off-flavors. Tomatoes subjected to bruising usually have less "tomato like" flavor and more off-flavors than those without physical damage. Exposure to chilling temperatures adversely affects tomato flavor before other symptoms of chilling become apparent."
No doubt, squirrel bites are damaging and can affect fruit quality.
" Since ethylene treatment reduces the time between harvest and consumption, it may have positive effects on flavor quality and Vitamin C content relative to tomatoes picked green and ripened without ethylene."
I read some data elsewhere that indeed showed Vitamin C increased by ethylene. Ripening tomato fruits give off ethylene, and I've noticed that late harvested fruit ripened much faster in a paper bag than they do on the counter. So... you may somewhat improve the taste and nutritional quality of fruit you had to finish ripening off the vine by bagging or boxing them.
Gorbelly, if you have the link to that study that compared table ripe Vitamin C and others would be nice to post it for us.
More quotes:
"The lowest temperature at which ripening, with good color and flavor development, occurs is 12.5 C. Above 30 C, lycopene formation (red color) is inhibited and the tomatoes turn yellow. Between 12.5 C and 25 C, the higher the temperature the faster the ripening. The optimum ripening temperature in terms of quality maintenance is 20 C."
"Tomatoes picked at less than table-ripe and ripened at 20C were evaluated by panelists as being less sweet, more sour, less "tomato like" and having more "off-flavor" than those picked at the table-ripe stage. The magnitude of these differences varied greatly among cultivars."

So here is the answer, when to pick less than table-ripe based on the weather forecast. If the foreseeable temperature is not to go above 12.5 C you gain nothing by leaving them on the vine. Don't know whether the southern growers also pick early when it goes above 30 C??

Last important point, please notice that variation in cultivars is acknowledged, and indeed the paper begins by urging breeders to direct their efforts to better combination of traits for quality delivery to market.
So there is no reason for "table-ripe" advocates to get agitated if someone reports that some tomatoes ripened very nicely and were delicious off the vine. Yes, it can happen. In spite of the general rule and your justified beliefs and personal experience!

More to the point, why not take this discussion to the next level, by telling us which varieties your specific comments are referring to if you can, that were clearly inferior when not picked fully table-ripe, or vice versa, varieties that developed excellent flavour in spite of having to pick before full ripe.... and any special treatment (bagged/boxed or not, temperature etc.) that made a difference. Since it seems that people everywhere do run into circumstances where they have to pick earlier than desired!

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by bower

Last important point, please notice that variation in cultivars is acknowledged, and indeed the paper begins by urging breeders to direct their efforts to better combination of traits for quality delivery to market.
So there is no reason for "table-ripe" advocates to get agitated if someone reports that some tomatoes ripened very nicely and were delicious off the vine. Yes, it can happen. In spite of the general rule and your justified beliefs and personal experience!

More to the point, why not take this discussion to the next level, by telling us which varieties your specific comments are referring to if you can, that were clearly inferior when not picked fully table-ripe, or vice versa, varieties that developed excellent flavour in spite of having to pick before full ripe.... and any special treatment (bagged/boxed or not, temperature etc.) that made a difference. Since it seems that people everywhere do run into circumstances where they have to pick earlier than desired!

Note that nobody is saying that picking early is always inferior. And nobody is saying that factors such as variety and weather do not factor into it. I don't know how many times I have to say that real life circumstances are complicated and have a lot of factors, so people need to act according to their priorities and personal judgment. I don't know how many times I have to point out that I, too, frequently pick early when I need to do so.

All I am saying is that assuring people across the board and with great certainty that picking early is exactly the same as picking at table ripe is almost certainly misinformation. And that claiming that the plant definitely gives nothing to the fruit after mature green is something that we cannot say with any scientific certainty, and there is plenty of evidence that it may not be the case.

The burden of proof should generally be on those making the bolder claim, not on those pointing out the limits of what has been proved and presenting evidence of uncertainty.

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by bower

More to the point, why not take this discussion to the next level, by telling us which varieties your specific comments are referring to if you can, that were clearly inferior when not picked fully table-ripe, or vice versa, varieties that developed excellent flavour in spite of having to pick before full ripe.... and any special treatment (bagged/boxed or not, temperature etc.) that made a difference. Since it seems that people everywhere do run into circumstances where they have to pick earlier than desired!

I'd like to give a honorary mention to varieties like Indian Stripe, Black prince and Orange Strawberry. Those were some of the tomatoes we have stored and allowed to ripen in a box, sometimes in a paper bag, sometimes covered with paper.
Orange Strawberry tasted sweet and fruity no matter what, and Indian Stripe & Black prince maintained their deep black flavor.
Black & Red Boar was another one that tasted wonderful even after picked green, like tropical fruit.

Not so good when ripened in a box: Zolotoe Serdse (Golden heart) .. but there are many variables, so I hope to grow it again in conditions that are more ideal and allow it to ripen on the vine..

[Hellmanns]

Plant health and vigor factor into fruit flavor as well. Sickly plants, or plants with a lot of foliage missing from foliage disease don't have good tasting fruits.

I also favor fruit from plants that are at peak production, and ripening fruit quickly. I don't know if these fruit are more complexly flavored because they grew when the plant was at its peak of health, or if the plant just finally gets its act together and starts ripening fruit like a pro..

I'll add, I have had several customers over the years that prefer breakers to table ripe fruit. These customers also prefer green shouldered varieties.