Starting 87 Year Old Seeds

[JohnJones]

Originally Posted by jtjmartin

I like the guy and have watched him before!

Fakes are hard to detect. My oldest brother has made a living out of detecting art forgeries that other experts have certified as genuine . . . and paid millions for!
https://news.artnet.com/market/james...esearch-771905

I love the idea of one day "discovering" old seeds from an extinct variety - or growing out a Girl Girl's Weird Thing of my own.

Thanks for posting JohnJones.

You reminded me of a small point I wanted to make about the seeds. People generally aren't going to fake something that is difficult to fake unless a lot of money is the reward. Those seed packets would be hard to fake and I doubt he paid hundreds of dollars for them, so I concluded they are likely not faked.

Certainly the seeds may not be original to the packets, but based on the difficulty he has had getting germination, I concluded they likely are original. If he was looking for more clicks and was actually running a scam, he likely would have used fresh seeds and gotten great germination so he could crow geekily about it.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JohnJones

You reminded me of a small point I wanted to make about the seeds. People generally aren't going to fake something that is difficult to fake unless a lot of money is the reward. Those seed packets would be hard to fake and I doubt he paid hundreds of dollars for them, so I concluded they are likely not faked.

Certainly the seeds may not be original to the packets, but based on the difficulty he has had getting germination, I concluded they likely are original. If he was looking for more clicks and was actually running a scam, he likely would have used fresh seeds and gotten great germination so he could crow geekily about it.

John, there are many folks who put up for auction at e-bay empty old seed packs, some are true and some are excellent reproductions as well as old seed catalogs.

It's good to know that the oldest tomato seeds ever confirmed to germinate were 50 yo seeds.

That happened when the precursor to the various USDA stations was in Cheyenne WY where the seeds were stored just in filing cabinets at ambient temps, and when the new station appeared in Ames,IA, all the seeds were sent there where germination was tested and confirmed.

The fact this person got low germination doesn't surprise me since over the years at different places I've done seed offers, and I can send the exact same seeds to 5 different folks and the germination % can range from zero to close to 90%.

I once had the report about the results from Ames but like many older links it went dead, but some great ones are still around.

My best save were 22 yo seeds of September Dawn.

Carolyn

[JohnJones]

Carolyn,

Were the 50 year old seeds the Magnus ones you and Craig brought back to life?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JohnJones

Carolyn,

Were the 50 year old seeds the Magnus ones you and Craig brought back to life?

The 50 yo seeds were the ones sent to Ames IA from Wyoming/

Not the Magus seeds where Craig got them from the USDA as we were both doing at the time, couldn't germinate them,sent them to me and I did,just 2 plants and sent one back to him.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Magnus

And I know that you and perhaps some others here who don't know the story might enjoy reading some more about Magnus, it's a good story.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...+plants&page=2

Carolyn

[JohnJones]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The 50 yo seeds were the ones sent to Ames IA from Wyoming/

Not the Magus seeds where Craig got them from the USDA as we were both doing at the time, couldn't germinate them,sent them to me and I did,just 2 plants and sent one back to him.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Magnus

And I know that you and perhaps some others here who don't know the story might enjoy reading some more about Magnus, it's a good story.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...+plants&page=2

Carolyn

Yes I do enjoy the story. First learned about it in Craig's book. Great story!

[Donna Mattingly]

Seeing the design of those seed packets sent me scurrying to my library. I have a package of Muskmelon Seeds that look to be from that era, though there are no dates on it and my packet has other design differences, such as the price...

[Donna Mattingly]

I also have a number of packs of flower seeds packed for 1967. I got all these from an old woman in Bradfordsville, KY several years ago. I just thought they were cool.

[Donna Mattingly]

People here have been so kind to me in sharing seeds...if there are any of you more experienced ones who would like a shot at waking these seeds up, PM me. I would like to give a few a try, myself, but it would make me happy to share with those more experienced and with proven success in salvaging old seeds. Just let me know!

[KimchiMonger]

I recently came across the seed video at MIGardener Youtube channel. Personally don't care if the seeds are as old as the claim states. I do follow him and his wife. His name is Luke and he runs his online seed business at MIGardner (dot) com. Last week received my first order of microgreen seeds (about 20 packets) and bag of worm castings. Will post results later but currently adding him to my short list of product providers with excellent experience and customer service. His site offers added bonus of more seeds per packet and all at $0.99 with low shipping cost. Upon closer inspection of seed packets I found them to have generous amount. Oh, and they shipped order out lightening fast!

Again, didn't care much about the old seed video as it would be difficult to prove age without a DNA test of sorts but remained entertaining.

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by JohnJones

Sadly,

I hesitated to post this video for fear of negative reactions. Not surprisingly it happened. There is healthy skepticism and then there is overt negativism. I encourage all to be open minded and LOGICAL without EGO

I've been following this thread, and feel that part of Hellman's argument, "That frame, burlap, screws, and glue are NOT 90 years old", IS logical. My guess is that the young gardening enthusiast has been duped. It's NOT logical to believe that he has managed to revive seeds that were "hanging on a wall at Lancaster County Seed Co.", and are 80+ years old, when Carolyn writes, "It's good to know that the oldest tomato seeds ever confirmed to germinate were 50 yo seeds."

JohnJones writes: " Hard to fake those seed packets and for what reason". I don't know how hard it would be to fake the seed packs, but they show very little sign of aging. The seed packs in post 36 are closer to what his should look like. I worked as chief technician in an art museum, and know well what acids, even in paper, can do to art, which is why acid-free paper is used in all framing. Burlap is inherently acidic (more so than paper), and those packets would be very discolored if the "shadow box" was even just 10 years old. As for "for what reason" - Luke says he paid a "hefty price", which is reason enough for those who sold it to him to fake it.
I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the young man (though he is running a seed business), but I don't find it LOGICAL to believe that obviously forged seed packs contain 80+ year old seeds.
One other thing: I've done an extensive internet search, and find no mention of a "Giant Crimson" tomato, though one may very well have existed. (I found "Crimson Giant", which is a Russian variety.)

Steve

[Starlight]

For those that haven't seen it, there's a thread here about 150 yr old seed. Makes for interesting reading.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=34115

I hope the seeds Luke got were for real. Hopefully if the plant grows out, he might consider getting a DNA test. I can't go to the sites he's on with my dial up, but maybe somebody who does and follows him will tell him to do it.

Wish I knew where his seed came from. Not to say this happened, but there lots of old envies being sold on ebay and such and it not hard to open a packet of seeds and re-glue to where it looks like it never been opened.

I'd be excited to see seed that old of seed offered just for the novelty of having it.

Something I would question is how the seed was stored. Could 87 year old seed germinate? Possibly, but I think a lot would have to do with how the seeds were stored to make sure the embyro inside stayed just moist enough to keep the seed from drying out and rendering it useless.

I'm sitting here with an unopened package of Straight 8 cucumber seeds packed for 1990. The seed came from an elderly lady in a box of stuff I got from her garage sale. Do I expect the seed to germinate? I doubt it, but the seed was free and what the heck, my give it a try. I haven't even opened the package yet to see what shape the seeds are in. They may be full of holes by now and dead.

[JohnJones]

Originally Posted by Donna Mattingly

Seeing the design of those seed packets sent me scurrying to my library. I have a package of Muskmelon Seeds that look to be from that era, though there are no dates on it and my packet has other design differences, such as the price...

Great to see this Donna. I am definitely not the one to try to start those, but maybe some brave soul will take up your offer.

[Gerardo]

Just looking at the # they chose for the age starts my culturally ingrained skepticism due to the insane amount of scammers populating my country. If I was faking it, I would have gone with 73 or perhaps 62... Spidey sense is tingling on this one...similar to the Chinese multicolored ones.

[jtjmartin]

Leaving aside any questions of authenticity and honesty, what would a DNA test show?

Wouldn't you need a DNA test of a known sample of Crimson Giant to compare the results of these tomatoes? Further, a DNA test cannot show or prove the age of the seeds.

Just thought it was an interesting question since DNA was mentioned a couple of times. OTOH, if you had the seeds and seed packet, how could you prove they were not 80 years old?

Just some wonderings on a cold day here in Virginia!

Jeff

[JohnJones]

Originally Posted by Donna Mattingly

Seeing the design of those seed packets sent me scurrying to my library. I have a package of Muskmelon Seeds that look to be from that era, though there are no dates on it and my packet has other design differences, such as the price...

Donna,

The price on his seed packets appears to be 10¢ as well.