Why not grow hybrids instead of heirlooms? - Page 4

Fred Hempel · April 1, 2015

I think there are a few snobs here who are also interested in hybrids, and some with very discriminating taste who do not need to save their own seeds.

Hybrids can be grown again, as long as there is demand and seed for sale.

I like to save seed. I like OP varieties. I also like hybrids, and I would shudder to think that I had to choose one or the other.

I also wonder, sometimes, why people insist on spending endless hours (and if time = money, a considerable investment) trying to dehybridize something so they don't have to pay for hybrid seed that costs a few dollars.

Is it really so bad to love a hybrid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine+twin

However, TV isn't just about heirlooms. The tomato snobs here

aren't just about heirlooms. They/we are all interested in open pollinated (OP) tomatoes so that we can save seeds this year and grow them again the next year. They/we are about breeding new backyard varieties (the whole Dwarf project) instead of making do with plants bred for the grocery and processing markets.
Catherine

heirloomtomaguy · April 1, 2015

Im interested in any tomato, op or hybrid, that is amazing and unique. I know some people hate hybrids just because they are not heirlooms. You have to remember that most heirlooms were at one point a carefully bred hybrid that was grown out to be a op cultivar. It just happened × amount of years ago but none the less it happened. So unless it is a gmo tomato it will always be welcome in my garden.

b54red · April 1, 2015

I think hybrids can be wonderful and very useful. Some have excellent taste and some have really good disease resistance but seldom are these two positive traits combined in one hybrid. For the first twenty years I grew nothing but hybrids recommended by the state agricultural college. I gradually became bored with the sameness of the fruits and the fairly bland taste. I found I was growing fewer and fewer tomatoes each year and eating less of them. They mostly ended up in the sauce pot or on a hamburger.

In desperation I grew a few heirlooms along with a few hybrids and once again found I loved tomatoes. The big problem was finding heirlooms that could tolerate our hot humid disease ridden climate and resist the soil borne problems long enough to produce some ripe fruit. After trying several hundred I have narrowed it down to less than 50 that I really love and have used grafting to get the disease resistance of the hybrids along with the great flavor and variety that heirlooms provide.

I'm just sorry it took me 40 years to figure out a way to get what I wanted in tomatoes.

Bill

Tracydr · April 1, 2015

Once you taste a good Cherokee Purple there's no going back. I tried eating the fresh but hybrid beefsteaks last summer from the local produce stand (we didn't have a garden since we moved in July) and my husband told me to stop wasting money on them.
I really love the variety of colors,sizes and tastes available in heirlooms/open pollinated.

AlittleSalt · April 1, 2015

I bought a Celebrity plant today just for saving seeds for F2s next time around. I have two Juliets and 3 Sungolds growing. I'm interested in saving seeds from them just out of the same curiosity. What will the F2, F3,etc. be like? Only one way to experience it. Try it.

ddsack · April 1, 2015

Quote:

I also wonder, sometimes, why people insist on spending endless hours (and if time = money, a considerable investment) trying to dehybridize something so they don't have to pay for hybrid seed that costs a few dollars.

Is it really so bad to love a hybrid?

Well, I love Sungold Hyb, as many people do, and don't mind buying a pack which usually lasts me 4-5 years. That said, no other hybrid that I have personally tasted besides Sungold, has anything really unusual in the taste. There are some decent pinks like Brandy Boy and a few reds like The Beef and Boy series, but none of them taste better than available heirlooms and OP's. When I started gardening, my very favorite tomato was the Rushmore Hybrid with Sioux (variety) heritage sold by the old original Gurney's catalog. Unfortunately, after about 5 or 6 years it went out of production, and when my seeds were gone --- that was it! None of the other similarly described hybrids I tried later tasted as good or did as well in my garden. Sioux was not the same as it's hybrid child. If I had know Rushmore was not going to be around forever, I might have tried to dehybridize it for myself. Actually, it was probably good for me that they dropped it, because if not for losing my favorite tomato, I may never have gotten into heirloom and OP growing.

joseph · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I have two Juliets and 3 Sungolds growing. I'm interested in saving seeds from them just out of the same curiosity. What will the F2, F3,etc. be like?

One of the tomatoes that I grow is an orange cherry tomato. I figure that it is probably a dehybridized Sungold.

mouka_f_slouka · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLRedHeart

Heirlooms aren't for everyone, but, where to start?

1) Open Pollinated varieties can be saved and grow true
2) No need to maintain parent lines and possibly lose the hybrid cultivar
3) Variety of shape, texture and flavor viewed as unavailable in hybrids
4) Nostalgia, the impression of preserving a piece of the past
5) Price premium when sold due to consumer perceptions of heirlooms
6) Personal satisfaction to successfully grow challenging tomatoes
7) Maximum yield not always important for the home gardener growing more tomatoes than they can eat

Hi Red,

I would agree with all of your reasons except for selling my tomatoes. I love growing tomatoes for personal reasons and not financial ones. Having said that, I can understand when someone is into growing a lot more than they can consume and might be interested in making a buck or two.
I personally like heirloom tomatoes simply to be able to save the seeds for the varieties that fit my soil and my gardening style.
Believe it or not, I did collect some random seeds from a community garden in my town and their seedlings are growing like crazy. The heirloom seeds I purchased are struggling to stay alive and none of them is really thriving. I wonder why?
Do you have any idea as to why these nameless varieties are growing big and are thriving while the heirlooms I purchased are struggling to stay alive?

HCWithAltitude · April 1, 2015

Quote:

When I started gardening, my very favorite tomato was the Rushmore Hybrid with Sioux (variety) heritage sold by the old original Gurney's catalog. Unfortunately, after about 5 or 6 years it went out of production, and when my seeds were gone --- that was it!

I feel your pain - my favorite hybrid Annelise was unexpectedly discontinued this year, and I only have 8 seeds left (minus the 2 I am growing this year). They were referred to as 'the flavor bomb' at work, and always the first to be picked out of the weekly bowl of tomatoes. Followed by the Matt's Cherry.

HWA

Cole_Robbie · April 1, 2015

If Johnny's had told me Taxi was a hybrid, I would have believed them 100%, because it grows stronger and faster than just about any other OP variety I grow. Yield and fruit set are excellent.

There are OP varieties out there that will keep pace with a hybrid in production and beat it on flavor. I have very good yields from the Chinese varieties I grow, and I'm also interested in several of the old Soviet varieties.

AlittleSalt · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph

One of the tomatoes that I grow is an orange cherry tomato. I figure that it is probably a dehybridized Sungold.

Cool

I've read so much about Sungold and how so many like them. I have three flowers on one plant - it's just a matter of time before I get to sample them. I can't help but wonder, "What if Sungold turns out to be a spitter for us"? I never have liked sweet tomatoes. But I'm still hoping they taste as good as others have written.

ddsack · April 2, 2015

Quote:

I can't help but wonder, "What if Sungold turns out to be a spitter for us"? I never have liked sweet tomatoes. But I'm still hoping they taste as good as others have written.

I hope it's not a spitter for you. There are a few folks that don't like Sungold, maybe because it doesn't have an expected tomatoey taste. I don't like most mild and sweet tomatoes either, but Sungold has a sharp fruity acidity in addition to the sweetness.

NarnianGarden · April 2, 2015

I saw the most wonderful pasta sauce recipe for SunGold (it's easy to find in the net), and was kinda disappointed my plant did not have enough simultaneous production for a sauce.
Other varieties were plentiful and we had many tomato dishes, but I'm still dreaming of the legendary SUnGold sauce...

linuxmoose · April 2, 2015

The flavor is the obvious reason for growing heirlooms.. I will argue that the assumed problems with heirlooms are nowhere as dramatic as claimed. I have little problem with the heirloom varieties, but when I've tried Better Boy, Early Girl, Celebrity, etc... I've had poor results. Maybe it is just my particular growing conditions, but my favorite heirlooms outperform the hybrids without question.
The following always do well, with no disease, etc... for me:
Cherokee Purple
Pruden's Purple
German Queen
Brandywine Sudduth's Strain
Eva Purple Ball
Jeff Davis
In addition to these, I always rotate in new heirlooms to try, and some make it the every year list.
The only hybrids I bother with are Roma VF and Sweet 100 cherry, mainly at the request of people who want me to grow them for them.

bughunter99 · April 2, 2015

Diversity is critical to species success. Monoculture is one disease epidemic away from extinction.

I love exploring the different traits of different vegetables. Yellow carrots, purple potatoes, white cucumbers, blue tomatoes, brown peppers, purple broccoli, rare parsleys and celery...they all have the slightly different traits than the most common variety of their species. But different does NOT mean inferior. In many cases different is superior in all ways except for popular opinion or perhaps shelf life. I don't grow based on either of these things. Hybrids are fine for some but far too narrow of a niche for many of us.

April 1, 2015	#47
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	Im interested in any tomato, op or hybrid, that is amazing and unique. I know some people hate hybrids just because they are not heirlooms. You have to remember that most heirlooms were at one point a carefully bred hybrid that was grown out to be a op cultivar. It just happened × amount of years ago but none the less it happened. So unless it is a gmo tomato it will always be welcome in my garden. __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

April 1, 2015	#55
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	If Johnny's had told me Taxi was a hybrid, I would have believed them 100%, because it grows stronger and faster than just about any other OP variety I grow. Yield and fruit set are excellent. There are OP varieties out there that will keep pace with a hybrid in production and beat it on flavor. I have very good yields from the Chinese varieties I grow, and I'm also interested in several of the old Soviet varieties. Last edited by Cole_Robbie; April 2, 2015 at 12:20 AM.

April 1, 2015	#48
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I think hybrids can be wonderful and very useful. Some have excellent taste and some have really good disease resistance but seldom are these two positive traits combined in one hybrid. For the first twenty years I grew nothing but hybrids recommended by the state agricultural college. I gradually became bored with the sameness of the fruits and the fairly bland taste. I found I was growing fewer and fewer tomatoes each year and eating less of them. They mostly ended up in the sauce pot or on a hamburger. In desperation I grew a few heirlooms along with a few hybrids and once again found I loved tomatoes. The big problem was finding heirlooms that could tolerate our hot humid disease ridden climate and resist the soil borne problems long enough to produce some ripe fruit. After trying several hundred I have narrowed it down to less than 50 that I really love and have used grafting to get the disease resistance of the hybrids along with the great flavor and variety that heirlooms provide. I'm just sorry it took me 40 years to figure out a way to get what I wanted in tomatoes. Bill

April 1, 2015	#49
Tracydr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7 Posts: 3,207	Once you taste a good Cherokee Purple there's no going back. I tried eating the fresh but hybrid beefsteaks last summer from the local produce stand (we didn't have a garden since we moved in July) and my husband told me to stop wasting money on them. I really love the variety of colors,sizes and tastes available in heirlooms/open pollinated.

April 1, 2015	#50
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I bought a Celebrity plant today just for saving seeds for F2s next time around. I have two Juliets and 3 Sungolds growing. I'm interested in saving seeds from them just out of the same curiosity. What will the F2, F3,etc. be like? Only one way to experience it. Try it.

April 2, 2015	#58
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	I saw the most wonderful pasta sauce recipe for SunGold (it's easy to find in the net), and was kinda disappointed my plant did not have enough simultaneous production for a sauce. Other varieties were plentiful and we had many tomato dishes, but I'm still dreaming of the legendary SUnGold sauce...

April 2, 2015	#59
linuxmoose Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Northport, Alabama Posts: 25	The flavor is the obvious reason for growing heirlooms.. I will argue that the assumed problems with heirlooms are nowhere as dramatic as claimed. I have little problem with the heirloom varieties, but when I've tried Better Boy, Early Girl, Celebrity, etc... I've had poor results. Maybe it is just my particular growing conditions, but my favorite heirlooms outperform the hybrids without question. The following always do well, with no disease, etc... for me: Cherokee Purple Pruden's Purple German Queen Brandywine Sudduth's Strain Eva Purple Ball Jeff Davis In addition to these, I always rotate in new heirlooms to try, and some make it the every year list. The only hybrids I bother with are Roma VF and Sweet 100 cherry, mainly at the request of people who want me to grow them for them.

April 2, 2015	#60
bughunter99 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: zone 5 Posts: 821	Diversity is critical to species success. Monoculture is one disease epidemic away from extinction. I love exploring the different traits of different vegetables. Yellow carrots, purple potatoes, white cucumbers, blue tomatoes, brown peppers, purple broccoli, rare parsleys and celery...they all have the slightly different traits than the most common variety of their species. But different does NOT mean inferior. In many cases different is superior in all ways except for popular opinion or perhaps shelf life. I don't grow based on either of these things. Hybrids are fine for some but far too narrow of a niche for many of us.