A community designed to produce its own food

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

I don't understand then.
If we waste less, there is more available for someone else.
You say it is not about me or us, but then say we live in excess.
This is where it can get personal so I will end my thoughts here other than to say: we can live more simply so that others may simply live.
I don't want to go down the road of arguing about redistribution of wealth, social justice, and allotting resources by smart grids and governmental control on a tomato website.

I'm saying that
1) We can't solve the problems of the demands of a rising middle class in the developing world through conservation in the developed world alone

2) Conserving and using what we have wisely isn't incompatible or mutually exclusive with finding ways to do things better going forward

3) Even in the developed world, we still need to build new housing in many countries unless there is zero population growth, so we may as well find ways to build housing in a way that produces less wasteful and less energy-intensive communities over a lifetime

New ways of organizing communities and envisioning community infrastructure should be a part of larger ecological efforts that must also include conservation efforts

So it's not about just you and me. It's a much more global picture.

And I didn't say anything about redistribution of wealth. I meant only that we cannot ethically or practically force the people rising out of poverty in the developing world to, say, give up driving or live in energy-efficient shoeboxes only. It's not fair to them and there's no way we could enforce it anyway even if we didn't care about the ethics. So it's important for everyone on earth to work together to come up with solutions that help people allover the world achieve the comfortable lifestyles they aspire to in ways that are better for the earth than the lifestyles wealthy nations have lived and modeled for the world up until now.

For example, if you have little existing housing that is considered to be of a livable standard, that is an opportunity to make sure that the new homes you do build which you have to build anyway incorporate technologies and strategies that are more environment- and community-oriented. If you don't have tons of people who can afford cars yet, you have an opportunity when you plan and build new communities for people rising out of poverty, to make great public transportation integral to those plans so that they will feel less of a need to buy cars and/or will drive less when they can afford cars.

Therefore, there is great potential value in experiments like this proposed community in the NL. The world can learn a lot from it and answer your very important questions about it while not using poorer communities in the developing world as guinea pigs for it.

[Black Krim]

A few short years ago I as in Holland aka The Netherlands. I was amazed at the social structure far different from the US society. I witnessed the remarkable effect of organized efforts. Land reclaimed from the sea and low lying areas drained for agriculture. Even saw a small 6-8 foot sailboat in the tiny canal maintained parallel to a road. Working together the Dutch are great breeders of horses and dairy cattle. With a committe to direct the breeding program of the Dutchwarmblood and the science to back up the selection methods, these horses are one of the best breeds for international completion in jumping and dressage. I see their education system as a design far better than what children experience in my local district. These are forward thinking people. In Amsterdam pot and s.e.x.are legal activities. Individuals are responsible fortheir actions and suits are not prevalent compared to the US. My thought is that given the unity in more socialist communities, community based living is likely to succeed. Ps. Never saw any litter anywhere during my travel.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Black Krim

A few short years ago I as in Holland aka The Netherlands. I was amazed at the social structure far different from the US society. I witnessed the remarkable effect of organized efforts. Land reclaimed from the sea and low lying areas drained for agriculture. Even saw a small 6-8 foot sailboat in the tiny canal maintained parallel to a road. Working together the Dutch are great breeders of horses and dairy cattle. With a committe to direct the breeding program of the Dutchwarmblood and the science to back up the selection methods, these horses are one of the best breeds for international completion in jumping and dressage. I see their education system as a design far better than what children experience in my local district. These are forward thinking people. In Amsterdam pot and s.e.x.are legal activities. Individuals are responsible fortheir actions and suits are not prevalent compared to the US. My thought is that given the unity in more socialist communities, communist based living is likely to succeed. Ps. Never saw any litter anywhere during my travel.

Thank you at least someone sees this beside me.

By the way you want to see a clean city come to downtown Austin.

Worth

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by MuddyToes

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Muddy Toes +1

That was the first thing I thought when I first saw this thread

For me, this was post #6666. I just wanted to post it to get it over with.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Here is the history of it.

I'm sorry, Worth, but with all respect, no American thinks about basketball courts in poor urban neighborhoods and doesn't at least subconsciously have race in their minds. It doesn't make people racists to associate these things--it makes them not aliens.

So if that makes you angry or defensive, all I can say is that I am an American and not an alien, and I don't believe that you're an alien, either. When any American talks about inner city kids not valuing education and placing too much emphasis on basketball, I connect that with a long history of American rhetoric that explains the problems of black urban culture by claiming their cultural priorities are pathological. So I prefer to point out that no community would value something of exceedingly poor quality such as the education systems in poor parts of this country. If we want people in places with bad schools to value their educations, we need to make those schools better, not tut tut them for liking sports.

That is all.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Thank you at least someone sees this beside me.

By the way you want to see a clean city come to downtown Austin.

Worth

I have no argument here. I've spent lots of time in the NL and have very close Dutch friends. Their culture just has different strengths, and thinking in terms of the common good and taking the long view are some of their notable strengths. If you'd been paying attention, Worth, you would have seen that that's what I've been saying about the Dutch all along.

It's worth pointing out that they have much more equality in their school systems. The disparities in the quality of education you get based on class and race are way less severe in most European countries than in the United States. Speaking in terms of other wealthy democracies, we have a very unusual way of funding and administering our public school systems in the US which leads to steep inequalities.

[Black Krim]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Thank you at least someone sees this beside me.

By the way you want to see a clean city come to downtown Austin.

Worth

I gave up on picking up litter in my community as I saw folks purposelytoss the trash.... WTH? Tide is against me. There really are groups of people that will not better themslves. Or their children. School principle tried to tell me for a couple years. I see it and get it now. Change only comes when folks want it.

As for the basketball issue. Courts are at every public school , urban suburban and rural. FIL played for Saracuse years ago.... a good cheap sport.

We need community gardens too. Room for both IMHO

[Black Krim]

Please dont get me started on schools in US. I teach my kids what school can't and wont soMy kids have been working at learning all of school vaca. Lots of vocab , because vocab was eliminated for a few years. REALLY. Our educational bar dropped in MA to meet US core curriculum levels about 8 years ago. Children only to show progress. Not about reaching their full potential.

Hence raising animals and veg like t omatos is educational for my family. Math. Science. New vocab.

Sorry for rant.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Black Krim

I gave up on picking up litter in my community as I saw folks purposelytoss the trash.... WTH? Tide is against me. There really are groups of people that will not better themslves. Or their children. School principle tried to tell me for a couple years. I see it and get it now. Change only comes when folks want it.

As for the basketball issue. Courts are at every public school , urban suburban and rural. FIL played for Saracuse years ago.... a good cheap sport.

We need community gardens too. Room for both IMHO

Too often, our interpretations for why people behave as they do says more about us and our assumptions than about them. We think we can explain behavior as coming from innate personality or character traits people have. Too often, they're actually making rational decisions--we just don't see the reasons behind it because our empathy has limits and we're not really able to put ourselves in their shoes. But weighing pros and cons and calculating reward and risk go waaaaay down to the root of the tree of life, and we humans also make thousands of sub- or unconscious calculations about investment vs. reward all the time. Including investment in our communities or investment in our educations. We weigh the efforts of that investment against what we expect to gain.

Heard of the "marshmallow test"? It was one of the most famous psychological studies ever done on kids.

The original test involved a kid, between the ages of 3 and 5, sitting in a room with a marshmallow in front of them, who was given a choice: Eat the marshmallow now or wait 15 minutes — an eternity in Kid Time — and get 2 marshmallows. Of the 600 subjects, two-thirds ate the marshmallow and the other third just smelled it, pet it, or salivated quietly until delicious validation arrived.

In follow-up studies when those same kids were about to go to college, researchers found the self-disciplined third had a lower body mass index, higher S.A.T. scores, fewer problems with drugs and attention span.

So of course, people jumped to a bunch of conclusions that said more about their assumptions than about what was actually happening. Many assumed that how much a person could delay gratification was a genetic quality. Others assumed that, if they could teach kids to deny themselves, i.e., teach them willpower, it would lead to success in the future.

Years later:

Celeste Kidd was a PhD candidate in brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester who thought about the marshmallow test with a fresh perspective a few years ago after watching how kids behaved at a homeless shelter. When families all shared one large common area, kids who managed to get a toy or a treat were at risk of losing it to a bigger, faster kid.

“I thought, ‘All of these kids would eat the marshmallow right away,'” Kidd said (presumably while hoarding all her marshmallows).

Kidd wanted to determine the role trust (or lack of it) played in The Great Marshmallow prophecy, so she added a step to the original test. Before the kids were offered marshmallows, they were first given lame art supplies and a promise of better stuff if they waited to play with them. Then, with half the kids, the researchers soon returned, saying they didn’t actually have better Crayons or stickers to play with after all.

When they got to the original test, the kids who were failed in the promise of better art supplies waited an average 3 minutes before scarfing down the marshmallow, while those who’d just finished making new masterpieces for their refrigerators while covered in Frozen stickers waited an average 12 minutes before eating the treat.

As it turned out, the children who did not delay gratification could have been making a very rational decision based on their experiences of how much they could trust the authority figure, i.e., the tester. Which of course makes a rational person wonder whether a lifetime of being betrayed by authority might mean less success in life.

Quoted article: https://www.fatherly.com/kids-health...something-big/

When I lived in New York, if someone in front of me on the street littered, I'd pick it up, tap on their shoulder, and say, "Excuse me, ma'am/sir. You dropped this, " and hand it to them. *shrug*

[Black Krim]

I have been to soup kitchens. The organizer Laurie winks at me when I look at her, appalled at the greedy animalistic behavior . At some point a person must make a conscious decision about one's own behavior. I'm talking about grown adults, not children. I suspect many if not most are not truly starving as they choose hi-tech hi priced cell phones over good dental care. I see that greed is learned. Jump quickly and earn the prize cupcakes. I assure you, the veggies are slow to move.

The studies are interesting. Have read two of them previously. The study doesn't address brain chemical deficiencies that effect one's ability to be patient. Specifically dopamine /ADHD.Impulse control is difficult, mildly to severely, without sufficient dopamine. AND the sugar content in s drives up the serotonin which can overwhelm the dopamine.

The latter is in addition to the effects u mentioned, not to negate.

IMO handouts create takers, not givers. Creates low selfesteem, not build high esteem. Better to provide an opportunity to earn, than give handouts for a lifetime. This gets complicated. Smile

[Black Krim]

Ps. Have several dogs. Strongest gets the food. And Reguarding authority my kids will never cross a teacher even if they are in the right. Safer to keep your mouth shut and take the abuse. This indoctrination keep kids subservient and prevents growth towards independence and selflearning. You know, the adult elephant tied to a stake by a weak rope.....he stops trying to escape... a child stops trying to learn independently, only what the teacher wants , no more.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Black Krim

I have been to soup kitchens. The organizer Laurie winks at me when I look at her, appalled at the greedy animalistic behavior . At some point a person must make a conscious decision about one's own behavior. I'm talking about grown adults, not children. I suspect many if not most are not truly starving as they choose hi-tech hi priced cell phones over good dental care. I see that greed is learned. Jump quickly and earn the prize cupcakes. I assure you, the veggies are slow to move.

A lot of people who are homeless or need soup kitchens are mentally ill and undiagnosed or not needing care.

People facing food uncertainty gravitate toward high-calorie foods. All animals do, including the human animal. If I didn't know where my next meal might come from, I wouldn't bother with the broccoli, either.

As for phones vs. dental care-- it's easy to get a nice phone secondhand, but it's less easy to get cosmetic dental work done. A phone serves a need in minute-to-minute life, whereas covering up that broken tooth is one of those things that has to go on the back burner. People who don't have money are also very sensitive to how people who show the signs of poverty--bad phones, knockoff clothing, etc.--get treated by society in general. Once again, these are often rational choices based on reasonable calculations.

Many poor people are having a rational response to the incentives of consumerist culture. If we want the poor to spend less money on what we deem frivolous, our society needs to stop awarding respect and normalcy preferentially to people who have those "frivolous" things and stop looking down on those who do not have them. Studies have shown that the more severe income inequality is, the more people seek out luxury goods. Money is power, and maybe those who cannot have the actual power of having money try to accrue some of the social benefits of wearing the signs that they have that power.

Originally Posted by Black Krim

Ps. Have several dogs. Strongest gets the food.

Have two cats (three until last month). I've taught them to share food peacefully, even if it's high-value food like roast chicken scraps. Not easy to do with cats, but they learned that I'll make sure everyone gets his fair share.

[Worth1]

We have huge schools where I live and I mean huge and we simply dont have the inequality in my area.
everybody shops and goes to school at the same place for the most part everyone gets along and there isn't much crime to speak of.
Bigger places like Houston and Dallas maybe and even Austin but not where I live.
Also the myth that Texas has poor education is just that, a myth.
I wont go into the details but it can be looked up.
And no I am not against sports I just said that the money spent on it can be better distributed to other lines of education.
More equal.

Not bad for small town USA.
One of our new schools that everyone goes to.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Black Krim

I gave up on picking up litter in my community as I saw folks purposelytoss the trash.... WTH? Tide is against me. There really are groups of people that will not better themslves. Or their children. School principle tried to tell me for a couple years. I see it and get it now. Change only comes when folks want it.

As for the basketball issue. Courts are at every public school , urban suburban and rural. FIL played for Saracuse years ago.... a good cheap sport.

We need community gardens too. Room for both IMHO

Usually some kid where I live that tosses trash.

Worth

[Cole_Robbie]

When you see a homeless person with a cel phone, they probably got it as part of a government grant or program that pays for it. They actually use them a lot to communicate with each other. They share information about which shelters/kitchens are open, and which places are giving away free stuff that day. A girlfriend of mine lived near a shelter in Chicago one summer. Trucks pull up all the time with food or other items to give away, so there's always 50-100 homeless people laying on the sidewalk outside.

If you've ever been stopped at a light and had your windshield washed by a "squeegee guy" who then asked for money, yes that is annoying, but squeegee guy is in the top 1% of homeless people when it comes to industriousness and work ethic. I'd always give them a dollar. I don't care if that money went straight to buy drugs, at least he attempted to work for it.

I got to the point where I just stuffed a handful of $1 bills into the front pocket of my shirt whenever I left the house. I'm sure if I lived in the city, eventually I would become desensitized enough to ignore beggars. Where I'm from, in small town America, we still have homeless people, but they hide. If they are visible, they have to deal with a constant stream of people trying to help them, and that's too much work. They just want to be left alone.