Pomodorino del Piennolo del Vesuvio (Spongillo)

[ilex]

Many times you start digging a hole or trench and add organic matter. That's fertilizer and holds water, then you break the surface every time it rains. It can get much more complicated with surface at a given angle to the sun ... holes prepared previous fall...

Varieties are usually selected for this, so have stronger root systems and are more drought tolerant. There were all kind of vegetables, even things like cauliflower and zucchini. De colgar tomatoes were usually dry farmed. You don't mind if they are smaller, and obviously last longer. As a rule, you should never water these tomatoes more than half you would do with regular tomatoes, and tomatoes don't require that much water anyway.

[cwavec]

So, I am in the "humid east", about 15 miles north of Pittsburgh.

Average annual rainfall is 884 mm.

Go figure!

[cwavec]

I'd like to look a little closer at this issue of water. ilex mentions varieties having
"stronger root systems" and being "more drought tolerant".
He is in Spain and points out that average rainfall there is only half what
it is in the Vesuvius area so these two factors would most likely be significant
for him and the de colgar varieties.

The Vesuvius situation appears to be quite different. ilex gives average annual
rainfall there as 877 mm. In isolation, that doesn't mean very much but I have
compared that with rainfall in my own area. The eastern portion of the US is
considered to have a humid climate. We have no deserts and, despite what you
may have heard over the last couple of years, droughts are infrequent. Average
annual rainfall, for me, is 884 mm. 2016 was lower than that by about 75 mm.
That's significant but still less than 10%.

Naples and the Vesuvius area, I would have to think then, exist in a humid
climate. There may be differences in water distribution because of such things
as terrain (altitude) or soil types but overall the amount of water available to
agriculture looks to be about the same as here in the "humid east".

Now to the Piennolo culture. These plants, although set into obviously very
dry surface soil, probably have ample water to thrive for an entire growing
season. It might be interesting to know whether the farmers water them a little
to give a good start as they are planted out. Lets look at what there is. First of
all, unless there is some anomaly, they have a pretty decent amount of direct
rainfall. Whether the surface soil absorbs this and retains it until plant roots
demand it is another matter. I don't know the answer to that one.

Then there is water migrating down from the slopes of the volcano. These flows
will be occurring mainly below the surface, maybe up to a few meters deep or
even more. Considering the amount of area in the upper, uncultivated slopes,
this is going to be really a LOT of water and the porous rock underground will
hold it very efficiently.

Here's a little example of how much water is involved. I have in my front yard a
1/4 acre pond, roughly 120' x 85' and 9 to 10 feet deep. This holds about
450,000 gallons of water. It is at the outlet end of a cove or hollow and is fed
by multiple springs in the cove. The total watershed area is about 40 acres.
That is the area in which,according to slopes, rainfall will move toward the pond
instead of away from it. If this pond were empty, one day of moderately heavy
rain will fill it and overfill it. I have seen this happen.

About 20 years ago, I drained the pond and had it redug because it had been
silted up over the years. The excavators were in ther for four days and just
after they left, we got some rain. That pond, from being completely empty one
afternoon, by the next morning was completely full and overflowing.

Now imagine the area of a volcano and how much water will be migrating down
those slopes and getting stored underground. Now you know how these
tomato plants are thriving without additional irrigation and why ilex sees
pictures of trees that he can't grow in his own yard.

[ilex]

Note we have a Mediterranean climate and that means summers are dry, and warm. That's when tomatoes grow. That is very different to having frequent thunderstorms. 2-3 thunderstorms late May to mid June would make fantastic tomatoes.

I've seen 6 months without any rain, or less than 100 mm in a year. I once tried wheat and other grains, so sowed early fall ... they didn't even come up. Even lentils died. Then, you get 450 mm in a few hours ...

[Locomatto]

Here's a link that may be of interest. I wish that it was a research article rather than a presentation slide deck, but it DOESNT cost any $$$ at SpringerLink so that's a good thing :-)...


http://globalengage.co.uk/ngs/docs/Caiazzo.pdf

Do those immense bunches grow like that, or have a number of smaller bunches been tied together at harvest?

[ilex]

Originally Posted by LDiane

Do those immense bunches grow like that, or have a number of smaller bunches been tied together at harvest?

They don't grow like that

[Fusion_power]

Piennolo means "hanging" so to call a tomato Piennolo del Pomodorino del Vesuvio literally means the Hanging Tomato of Vesuvius. As MrBig has attempted to show, there are several varieties grown in the region that are sold under the PDO label. I have 4 of them in my collection though I only grow 1 or 2 a year.

If you look through Sandhill's list, you will find Piennolo del Vesuvio which is a potato leaf version almost identical to the RL version shown in the video by MC. This tomato was brought back by NCtomatoman about 8 years ago. He sent me a few seed which I grew and then shared widely here on TV and other gardening sites. Sandhill also carries King Humbert and Principe Borghese.

What are the common traits of these varieties? They tend to be either determinate as Principe Borghese or compact indeterminate as the Piennolo sold by Sandhill. The plants are adapted to soil with high mineral content. I have an area of heavy red but permeable clay soil here at my home that is only 20 feet by 15 feet. I have planted them in that area and get the exceptional flavor and ability to store as a hanging tomato. The worst thing to do to a Piennolo del Vesuvio is to plant it in excellent soil. Plant in well amended soil with lots of compost but with a heavy but permeable clay or mineral base for best results.

Someone wanted a bit more genetic information. Piennolo and de colgar varieties share the trait of having very thick skin. By comparison with most table tomatoes, it is at least twice as thick. The thick skin restricts evaporation which maintains the water content of the fruit during storage. These tomatoes tend to produce clusters of 3 to 4 fruit. The other part of storing these type tomatoes is to store in a cool slightly damp cellar. If stored too dry, they rapidly shrivel. If stored too wet, they tend to develop fungal infections that ruin the tomatoes. On a genetic basis, these varieties do not have the genes for reduced ethylene response. Ethylene is a gas produced by many fruits including tomato that induces ripening. Some varieties of tomato produce less ethylene. Some respond less to the ethylene they produce. Commercial hybrids have been developed in recent years using the rin and nor genes which extend shelf life immensely. IMO, these tomatoes are flavorless and inedible.

Winterkeeper was developed by a home gardener who noticed that some of his tomatoes would keep on the counter a very long time. He saved seed and over many years stabilized and enhanced the trait. While I have not seen scientific proof, I suspect this variety produces less ethylene. It responds normally to ethylene if placed in a paper bag with some apples. Apples produce an abundance of ethylene which can be used to trigger ripening in other ethylene sensitive fruits such as banana.

Could Piennolo tomatoes be improved? Yes, they could certainly use some work on septoria and other disease resistance traits. I crossed Piennolo (the PL variety) X LA0417 a few years ago and have been growing out the offspring since. I am seeing much better disease resistance in my garden but have not yet gotten back to a tomato that looks and stores like PDV. They could also be improved if they retained more sugar when ripe. This is complex because tomatoes are genetically programmed to convert sugar into starch. So the difficulty is to get the plant to produce more sugar and then to prevent it from being converted to starch. I have Hibor which is an orange (Beta) pear shaped tomato that happens to have the genes to produce and retain sugar. With a bit of work, I hope to cross the disease resistant PDV cross X Hibor to hopefully combine high disease resistance with high sugar retention plus the thick skin and long storage traits from PDV.

[ilex]

Alc gene in these tomatoes:

Genetic basis of long shelf life and variability into Penjar tomato

https://link.springer.com/article/10...677-6?LI=true#

Penjar means hanging in Catalan.

[ilex]

Instructions for storage are cool and dry ... but relative humidity here is 60-80%, highest in winter, so dry is relative. You just want to avoid cave conditions. Cool means not hot, doesn't mean refrigerator by any means. It's more around 15 C. The best place I have is my kitchen which stays at 16-18 C all winter. Too cool and they spoil.

[ilex]

Darrell, we should work out a trade. I've got interesting genetics for you ( 100 de colgar varieties ), plus many other interesting Spanish vegetables.

Some varieties are much better than others for eating fresh after a few months of storage. We should always keep in mind that almost all varieties are not selected for that.

[ddsack]

Would the de colgar varieties generally be considered mid-season or late season bearers? It makes a difference, because if I grow for hanging storage, I do not want them to start ripening too early. So if they have shorter DTM's I would want to start them later than my regular varieties. (Too late to change anything for this year, some are already up!)

As I understand it, the plants with tomatoes attached, are supposed to be pulled while most of the tomatoes are full sized but green, perhaps when the first ones start turning ripe? Is that correct?

[ilex]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Would the de colgar varieties generally be considered mid-season or late season bearers? It makes a difference, because if I grow for hanging storage, I do not want them to start ripening too early. So if they have shorter DTM's I would want to start them later than my regular varieties. (Too late to change anything for this year, some are already up!)

As I understand it, the plants with tomatoes attached, are supposed to be pulled while most of the tomatoes are full sized but green, perhaps when the first ones start turning ripe? Is that correct?

No, you want them early. In fact, they were the first tomatoes sown, as early as Christmas day. Here, longer storage is with those picked late July. Longer cooler nights (humid) affect storage. The later you pick them, the less they'll keep in storage.

Most de colgar varieties are indeterminate, normal size. Only some determinate Italian varieties are hanged with the whole plant. I can't remember any Spanish variety stored that way. You want to pick by bunches, when at least half the tomatoes in the bunch show color.

[Locomatto]

The majority of longkeeping tomatoes use the Alc gene as a way to extend their storage. However there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. The nor and rin genes (alleles of Alc), for example, will also extend the shelf life of tomatoes when used in an F1 hybrid.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._their_hybrids

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._of_literature


In the case of Piennolo del Vesuvio, it appears to use a number of other genes that regulate skin (cuticle) thickness and composition, as well as cellular metabolism.

[ddsack]

Ok, good to know about the longer cooler night issue.
Shorter branches of clusters will be easier to deal with than whole vines, and makes more sense for indets. Thank you!