The Red Baron Project year one

[Redbaron]

What do you think?

What are some of the start up materials that you will need?

Terry

The first and most important "material" needed is to sit down and listen to farmers and ranchers in the area. Learn the local conditions, learn the land, the weather, the water flow and cycle, irrigation rights if any, buildings, tractors, fencing and other equipment already available etc... in great detail. Then investigate the markets already available and a strategy to develop markets that may or may not be there already like CSA's etc. Local laws. The list is long. You have to take a holistic and systems thinking approach and view the entire whole, not just one part. Joel Salatin (who has given many talks on how he developed his scale-able agricultural prototypes for multi-species MIRG) once was asked what advise he would give to the people trying to do something like what he is doing, if exported to help Iraq develop their delta, so they can again feed themselves. His answer was both short and wise.

"Yes, I am confident that we can help them. I think the first thing we need to do though is sit down and listen for a year."- Joel Salatin

And of course in my signature for Tville I quote Bill Mollison with every post.

"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system."-Bill Mollison

All that assuming I can even pull it off on the small scale I am trying out now! LOLZ I haven't done ANYTHING yet! It is still spring year one! hahahahaha

BUT if your friend is really serious, message me privately and I will have a chat with him, maybe even schedule a meeting on the acreage at some future date. So I can see what's there to work with.

My original plan, once I got this project relatively well hammered out was to go to my cousin who owns the original family farm started by my great grandfather, and work out the largest scale there in cooperation with my family on our family land. So I might even decide to pass on the $1 lease offer.....maybe. The future is never locked in stone. I am flexible if I am anything at all. So we will see. Message me privately with a phone number of the guy and we can at least talk about it.

[Master_Gardener]

[QUOTE=SIP Gro-Tubs;351488]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I, would like to hear your theories of how you would upscale the backyard model type of Permaculture for feeding a single family to a large scale such that commercial growers use, without doing major modifications.

Just think of a commercial grower spreading hay in round bales on just 1 section of land, or adding compost to same amount of land, those types of modifications arn't major they would be astronomical, especially for the funds they would have to have to even to start the first year, and then on a yearly basis.

Terry Layman

I can think of several differences other than material cost. Imagine harvesting your home garden. Now imagine 'scaling' that technique to 100 acres. That is a challenge.

I certainly do not have all the answers, but one thing seems to stand out is that there are some cultural practices that are optimized for a home garden and some that are optimized for a commercial farm. I'm not sure there will always be a 1:1 scaling of the exact same practices.

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

[QUOTE=Master_Gardener;351643]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

I can think of several differences other than material cost. Imagine harvesting your home garden. Now imagine 'scaling' that technique to 100 acres. That is a challenge.

I certainly do not have all the answers, but one thing seems to stand out is that there are some cultural practices that are optimized for a home garden and some that are optimized for a commercial farm. I'm not sure there will always be a 1:1 scaling of the exact same practices.

The Upscale is to a "Section of Land" not 100 acres. One section fenced off from the surrounding
sections, RedBarron's choice of what section he wants.

The land is in the area of FT. Worth and Dallas, TX approx. 40 miles south of the center of the 2 cities.

It's now being used for cattle grazing, and has more than enough water to use.

[Redbaron]

OK Terry,
That's enough information to at least get me started. Keep in mind the way I originally intended to run this project, I wasn't going to tackle a section size or larger until phase three. I originally intended to tackle details small scale first, then move to around 10-25 acres, then 100 acres+ Basically a start small at the bottom and work my way up. However, with that kind of acreage and already in beef production, I would start at the top and work down. Still many variables, but I can give you an idea of the materials you will need and a very basic plan of action.

The VERY first thing we do is find out the current average yearly cow days per acre for the property as it is being run now. Second thing we do is establish a baseline by sampling the soil and vegetation. This is what we will monitor.

Next step is a topographical map to determine keylines.

Then we use keyline design to establish paddocks of the size needed to allow forage for 1-3 days. Those paddocks will be established with portable electric fencing and water supply. Cost is about 50-100 dollars per acre if we can gravity feed all the better, and will allow a Managed Intensive Rotational Grazing system to be established. Right off the bat first year that means an average of 50%-100% increase in forage availability. IE Doubling the average yearly cow days per acre. This is primarily due to the "second bite" principle. ie, the herds are not allowed a second bite on the same grass plant, allowing it to recover before the paddock is grazed again. This sparks very vigorous growth.

Read more about the specifics here: "Pastures for profit: A guide to rotational grazing"

As you can see by the charts, the time to make hay is at the peak growing season when the cattle can't keep up, and then the hay is used to supplement during low growth periods to avoid over grazing. One of the many benefits of this type of grazing system is that the quality of the forage (and thus the hay too) gradually and naturally increases over time due to the "mob mowing effect" causing higher level successional species of grass and high quality forbs to thrive and dominate.

This part is well proven, there are university guides published like the one I linked earlier. And I even have contacts in Texas using it now that can help me establish that portion of the management plan.

Next step is incorporating multiple species into the livestock plan. One certain to be needed is chickens, specifically hens for egg production. They are highly important to the grazing plan as clean-up and pest control. They follow the cattle paddocks 3 days after the herds move and eat fly larvae and ticks etc. plus many other insects like grasshoppers that can harm pasture, and spreading the cow manure as they scratch for bugs. They also provide a second revenue stream on the same land actually improving productivity of the pasture for cattle. Other possibilities are sheep and goats to clear brushy areas and/or areas taken over by invasives, allowing them to return to good pasture, hogs if there are wooded areas, possibly turkeys if we can find a market.

Materials needed for that is feathernet electric fencing, a portable "egg mobile" (for poultry only), feeders for grain supplements and water. If there are wooded areas, we can probably make an "egg mobile" on site with native materials pretty cheap with a mobile band saw mill.

This part is also well proven. Polyface Farms developed and perfected this technique in a scale-able way to any size business model. Read more here: Polyface Farms

Next is integrating vegetable and grain production into the plan. I would start with one paddock established by the above plan. Year 1 use the techniques I am working on in a small scale this year. ie The no till mulch and hay and start with a good market crop for the area. Tomatoes will need stakes for a Florida weave, other crops not so much. The spacing of course depends on the vegetable crop. The paddock will be grazed like any other paddock with the exception of just prior to preparation for veggies. Then we use the "second bite" principle the opposite way. After it is grazed, and followed by chickens, when the strips we intend to use for veggie production are using their reserves for regrowth at at their weakest, we mow the strips very low then paper and mulch. (leaving taller unmolested pasture between rows). Those pasture strips will be used to raise broilers in "chicken tractors". Also can be used for grass clippings for mulch, compost etc. With feather net fencing can raise egg layers too, even potentially smaller grazers like meat rabbits. You can get an idea how that works from Polyface too.

I would start with just chickens though. And make my rows 4 feet wide and the pasture between them 12 feet wide, and 350 feet long. So each 10X12 chicken tractor will travel 10 feet a day times 35 days (the days on pasture for a broiler to make market weight) This allows the animals to be out of the paddock when veggies are being picked.

When the paddock is finished with it's crop, the paddock can be used whole again to allow the animals to clean up.

The following year, we use 2 paddocks. Think of a rotational cropping system. What grew tomatoes this year can grow corn the next. Then beans the following year and 3 paddocks in crop production. The new one in tomatoes, next one corn and third beans. Next year four used tomatoes, corn, beans, wheat....and so on and so on until you put the first back into pasture (fallow except for grazing)....and then start the rotation over again. This should help prevent diseases and pest buildups.

That's how I see this working on acreage the size of a section or more. Nothing proven yet. Sure to be many rough edges to work out. But, that's the basic plan. There may also be areas we could look at establishing perennials, orchards or a "food forest" if applicable to the land. Every area would be slightly different that way. The idea is to use biomimicry, substituting food crops of domestic species for what naturally would be growing in the area. This way we are working with nature instead of fighting against nature, which requires much less effort and yields far more productivity on average.

PS I would still need to talk with the person managing this land before attempting to get more specific than this. You never sent me a private message with his number.

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Here is a couple pictures of what the storm did.

So, its been 2 weeks since the above was posted.

When are you going to post some more pictures showing the progess so far.

Terry

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

So, its been 2 weeks since the above was posted.

When are you going to post some more pictures showing the progess so far.

Terry

Believe it or not the area is still too wet to get into much. Just one storm after another. Rained again last night! So very little has changed. I still have standing water! In that 2-3 weeks I have gotten in the garden to work only a couple hours. But according to the weatherman several days of sun coming finally! Maybe even a full week of sun! WooHoo! So I will try and take some pics this weekend. Don't expect much though. The plants have been through continuous stress and pounding all spring. At least most of them are still alive!

[MrBig46]

Terry, can you preset a smaller font? Thank you.
Vladimír

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Believe it or not the area is still too wet to get into much. Just one storm after another. Rained again last night!

Standing water never hurt a dedicated grower or farmer.

So very little has changed. I still have standing water! In that 2-3 weeks I have gotten in the garden to work only a couple hours.

See, that just gives you more reasons to document your project. Standing water around the plants shows that those type of natural disasters, are overcomed.

But according to the weatherman several days of sun coming finally! Maybe even a full week of sun! WooHoo!

Local weaterman are a dime a dozen, they couldn't predict the weather if thier lives depended on it. It's just like those on-line Dopplers, I, know exactly were I, live according to thier map. The main highway is less than 15 miles long from county line to county line, I'm at the 5 mile mark.

The other day, the doppler shows a Red storm cell engulfing the whole 15 x 30 mile area over our heads, that means a lot of rain. I, look out the window and the sun's shining, and only got a trace of rain.

So I will try and take some pics this weekend. Don't expect much though. The plants have been through continuous stress and pounding all spring. At least most of them are still alive!

I, would take some pictures to document everything.

Terry

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by MrBig46

Terry, canm you preset a smaller font? Thank you.
Vladimír

m

I'll try to, but if I go too small, I can't see what I'm typing.

This is size 3. What I was using is size 4

[tlintx]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

m

I'll try to, but if I go too small, I can't see what I'm typing.

This is size 3. What I was using is size 4

You can zoom your browser and put your font to normal.

I'm sitting on the couch ten feet from the tv screen, with the browser set to 150% zoom.

Sorry to hear about the rain up there! We had five inches fall in about two hours (completely subjective guesstimate) a few days ago. I left some room under the slope edge of my raised bed for drainage, just in case.

I thought walking on or working wet soil damaged the structure?

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

In this case the hay is from Texas. It is almost all grass and isn't my first choice. But in Oklahoma after years of drought and lots of hungry horses and cattle, it is all that is available.

In my vision of how this will progress in future years I see making my own hay with plenty of other things in it like alfalfa instead of just coastal grass.

I've thought about attempting to make a small plot of alfalfa to use in compost and mulching. How much land are you thinking of devoting to the hay?

Glenn

[MrBig46]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

m

I'll try to, but if I go too small, I can't see what I'm typing.

This is size 3. What I was using is size 4

Thank you. It is better.
Vladimír

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by COMPOSTER

I've thought about attempting to make a small plot of alfalfa to use in compost and mulching. How much land are you thinking of devoting to the hay?

Glenn

Devoting? I wouldn't personally be "devoting" anything to just hay. Multi-purpose "including" hay? That for sure can be either grown between rows or in the staging areas between plots if you were going to try and make a high % alfalfa type hay. Or in a grazing paddock between rotations for grass hay.

On the other hand once the rotation is in place. You certainly could include alfalfa in the rotation as part of the crops. It wouldn't be hard. Just use a no till seed drill in later years after the sod has been killed back by the mulch from previous years.

Something like this might be useful. Dew Drop Drill

PS I am not sure if you are 100% organic or just mostly organic. I have already posted a couple vids you might be able to pull some ideas from though, if it helps.

Living Mulch Part 1 1:45 Helen either lets the "hay" decompose between rows as it gets mowed, or when needed to add to compost, grows it right beside the compost pile.

Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health The farmers in this vid are both integrating animals and/or growing hay too. All as part of a rotation. Most are not completely organic, but are integrating organic methods into their farming. I talked to one of the farmers of this vid on the phone. He is almost completely 100% organic in the fields he started integrating these methods, and newer fields he is still gradually weaning outside chemical inputs. He grows his hay in between his other crops ie.. after one is harvested, but before the next is planted. He is also the only guy I ever saw, met, or read about, who already uses the technique of using a large cylindrical bale of hay and unrolling it for a thick mulch. He does it for potatoes. He simply puts the seed potatoes directly on top of the ground and rolls the hay bales over them. Finished till harvest.

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Devoting? I wouldn't personally be "devoting" anything to just hay. Multi-purpose "including" hay? That for sure can be either grown between rows or in the staging areas between plots if you were going to try and make a high % alfalfa type hay. Or in a grazing paddock between rotations for grass hay.

On the other hand once the rotation is in place. You certainly could include alfalfa in the rotation as part of the crops. It wouldn't be hard. Just use a no till seed drill in later years after the sod has been killed back by the mulch from previous years.

Something like this might be useful. Dew Drop Drill

PS I am not sure if you are 100% organic or just mostly organic. I have already posted a couple vids you might be able to pull some ideas from though, if it helps.

Living Mulch Part 1 1:45 Helen either lets the "hay" decompose between rows as it gets mowed, or when needed to add to compost, grows it right beside the compost pile.

Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health The farmers in this vid are both integrating animals and/or growing hay too. All as part of a rotation. Most are not completely organic, but are integrating organic methods into their farming. I talked to one of the farmers of this vid on the phone. He is almost completely 100% organic in the fields he started integrating these methods, and newer fields he is still gradually weaning outside chemical inputs. He grows his hay in between his other crops ie.. after one is harvested, but before the next is planted. He is also the only guy I ever saw, met, or read about, who already uses the technique of using a large cylindrical bale of hay and unrolling it for a thick mulch. He does it for potatoes. He simply puts the seed potatoes directly on top of the ground and rolls the hay bales over them. Finished till harvest.

Thanks for the videos I will check them out.

I am 100% organic in as much as I have full control over. I do not use any herbacides, pesticides or fungicides on any of my property. Haven't for 7 years. I do use 1 bagged OMRI listed fertilizer, basalt dust and lime. The thing that I use that I am not in control of the organic content of is sheep manure mixed with straw bedding from a local farmer. That would be the only input that may potentially contain some type of drugs or chemicals.

Glenn

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by COMPOSTER

Thanks for the videos I will check them out.

I am 100% organic in as much as I have full control over. I do not use any herbacides, pesticides or fungicides on any of my property. Haven't for 7 years. I do use 1 bagged OMRI listed fertilizer, basalt dust and lime. The thing that I use that I am not in control of the organic content of is sheep manure mixed with straw bedding from a local farmer. That would be the only input that may potentially contain some type of drugs or chemicals.

Glenn

Glenn

Well get a sheet of paper, before you watch that video and everytime you hear the words "Herbicide" and "Commercial Fertilizer" in the video, you can keep score.

Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health

So you are probably more Organic than they are.

Terry