Huh? True Black Brandywine - Page 4

Wi-sunflower · November 14, 2008

Thanks, I guess I'll be doing some Googling and emailing then.

**carolyn137** · November 17, 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Thanks, I guess I'll be doing some Googling and emailing then.

I found some PL Black Brandywine seeds for you.

It's currently being grown by a friend in FL and he said he'll send me some seeds in a couple of months.

Wi-sunflower · November 17, 2008

Wow, I can't believe how great all the people here are.

I promise I will propagate and increase the seeds. I'll send you a PM with my address. I usually try to save at least a 1/3 ounce or more from all my seeds. That way I have seed for myself, my plant sales and seed trades for at least a couple of years in case I can't harvest it again for a while.

I originally got into heirlooms when I found your book at the SSE store in Madison quite a few years ago. At the time I had maybe a dozen of the varieties in the book. I'm not sure how many I currently have from your book as I haven't been able to find the book for a while.( My house is a mess except for my organization of my seeds.) I currently grow over 150 varieties and I think about 1/2 or more of them are heirlooms. But so far most of the varieties I've gotten are (or were) commercially offered, at least for a while. I do have a few varieties that are no longer offered by the companies I got them from.

I know the PL Black Brandywine isn't a true "heirloom" but it is rare, and that's another of the things I "collect" in part so they don't disapear altogether and I guess that's more or less what a lot of the people here do too.

Thanks much.

ceresone · May 25, 2009

I definetly must save up money for Carolyns book!! Even at almost 72, theres still a lot to be learned!
For instance, I bought into the True Black Brandywine--and have it in the garden right now. I must remember to watch it close.

Wi-sunflower · May 25, 2009

I was going to comment on the PL Black Brandywine after I got done with my plant outs, but as this thread was just revived I guess now is OK too.

Unfortunately the PL BBW seeds Carolyn sent me were probably a victim of the post office issues discussed elsewhere here. I only got 1 seedling. At the moment it's somewhere in a mass of seedlings in my greenhouse so I can't tell if it's actually PL or not until I find it again.

At the time of germination I wasn't too worried as I had found BBW listed as PL on the Sandhill site and ordered 2 or 3 packs of seeds. Unfortunately now that those seedlings as big I see that not a 1 of several flats of plants are PL. ALL the seedlings are RL.

Since the original Black Brandywine was the result of an accidental cross, and everyone seems to have a problem still getting a PL seedling, my guess is that the original seed was not stable when released to the public.

Carol

**carolyn137** · May 25, 2009

Since the original Black Brandywine was the result of an accidental cross, and everyone seems to have a problem still getting a PL seedling, my guess is that the original seed was not stable when released to the public.

****

Carol, it was unstable pretty much from the get go. Craig got two kinds of plants,an RL or perhaps a PL, I can't remember, that he said gave small fruits that were a bag of seeds and an RL that he said most closely resenbled Black from Tula.

I think it was two years ago that Linda at TGS deleted the listing for Black Brandywine from her catalog and website b'c of the instability of this variety. it was in the growing fields of Seeds by Design in CA, a wholesale place where she had subcontracted out for seed production and the natural cross occurred there.

I'm pretty saure I have more of those PL seeds that I sent to you that were sent to me by a tomato friend in FL and it's remained PL for him. And this time I'll be sure to pad the seeds with a white paper napkin which I now know works from the experiment that bcday and gardenmama and I did.

So why not contact me in the Fall sometime if you're still interested.

As for any variety called Black Brandywine, true or untrue,

I have zero interest in growing it myself.

Wi-sunflower · May 25, 2009

Carolyn,

I'm hoping I will find a nice healthy plant from the seeds you sent waiting for field planting. I'll let you know later this summer how things are growing.

Right now my greenhouse is still quite the jungle as we aren't quite at out safe "last frost" date here. Hopefully we will start planting sometime next week.

Carol

camochef · May 26, 2009

to further complicate the issue; last year I grew Black Brandywines from Marianna's, Amishland, and Heirloom tomatoes. Some were potato-leafed, some were regular-leafed. Some grew oblate, some grew tulip or pear-shaped, and some were globular. All tasted good!
This year I will grow some of each again, and I even separated seeds by tomato shape. Also received seeds labled true Black Brandywine in a trade, which I'm planting also. So with some luck and accurite record keeping I'll offer my conclusions at the end of the season.
To all those that liked Black Brandywine's, I suggest you also try Amazon Chocolate!
Happy Gardening,
Camo

**carolyn137** · May 26, 2009

Camo, if you're growing out the RL plants from what's supposed to be Black Brandywine introduced by TGS, what are you going to do about the different shaped fruits you're getting?

Same comment for the PL plants since we know that there are PL plants that aren't giving the large dark beefsteak that the variety was supposed to be.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that knowing that it's not genetically stable and knowing that Linda at TGS deleted it from her catalog and website two years ago b'c of the instability problem, would you then distribute seed from the various non BB's and if so, what would you name them if you did?

The supposed True Black Brandywine is a completely different issue and the parentage is completely different, supposedly, from the TGS Black Brandywine.

travis · May 26, 2009

I've grown both the Black Brandywine seed sold by TGS and the True Black Brandywine sold by Bakers Creek. They are very different. The True Black Brandywine is worth growing if you don't happen to have a better black/purple potato leaf variety of which there definitely are some. But I'm not putting down True Black Brandywine by any means.

camochef · May 26, 2009

Carolyn,
Last year I didn't keep track of what plant came from where I simply labeled them all black brandywine, not knowing there was going to be such a major difference. This year I numbered everything, so I know which plant comes from where. So I have marianna's bb, amishland bb, heirloom tomatoes bb, camo's tulip bb, camo's oblate bb, camo's globular bb, blu's true bb. that's how they will be kept. As well as leaf type.
Last year I got all three shapes off one plant, but I can't recall for certain what leaf type, I think it was the P.L. Last year my main concern was taste, not so much leaf types or shapes. I will try to keep better notes this year as I'm getting more questions all the time.
I don't know if I'm going to get involved in sending out seeds this coming year. Between postal problems, and other germination and growing problems this year, I think I'm just going to restock my seeds. I hardly have a seed left in the house now!
Camo

TZ-OH6 · May 27, 2009

How can a potatoleaf be genetically unstable for leaf type? It is a homozygous recessive trait. The fruit characteristics would be all over the place if the variety were unstable, but not the leaf type.

**carolyn137** · May 27, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZ-OH6

How can a potatoleaf be genetically unstable for leaf type? It is a homozygous recessive trait. The fruit characteristics would be all over the place if the variety were unstable, but not the leaf type.

Good question.

Black Brandywine is not the only variety that shows instability with a PL leaf form. If self pollenization were complete one wouldn't expect to find RL forms from saved seed.

I'm trying very hard to remember the variety I once grew that was supposed to be PL, and sometimes was, but when I'd save seed from the PL I'd get back both PL and RL plants and when I saved seed from the RL the same thing would happen. But the fruit form remained the same.

With BB it isn't only the leaf form that's genetically unstable, but also the fruit form as many folks have noted and Camo also noted above.

How this is happening at the molecular level I don't know so I have no good answer for you. All I know is that it happens.

I'm thinking of the variety Lutescent, which is stable, but the pale foliage, pale blossoms and fruit maturation sequence re color from green to white to yellow to orange to red is not common and it's been theorized that the variety arose by the mutation of a pleitropic gene, that is, one that controls several other traits.

So I guess what I'm asking is if any pleiotropic genes might be at work when a variety flip flops between PL and RL and only leaf form is altered? It's at least one possibility. So are jumping genes, which tomatoes do have.

camochef · May 28, 2009

carolyn,
My Caspian Pink-P.L. from last season is also flip-flopin, some P.L. some R.L. this season. Will note if it occurs elsewhere.
Camo

retiree · May 28, 2009

Hi
Maybe Taps or Polish C ?

Neil G. (Canada)

May 25, 2009	#51
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Since the original Black Brandywine was the result of an accidental cross, and everyone seems to have a problem still getting a PL seedling, my guess is that the original seed was not stable when released to the public. **** Carol, it was unstable pretty much from the get go. Craig got two kinds of plants,an RL or perhaps a PL, I can't remember, that he said gave small fruits that were a bag of seeds and an RL that he said most closely resenbled Black from Tula. I think it was two years ago that Linda at TGS deleted the listing for Black Brandywine from her catalog and website b'c of the instability of this variety. it was in the growing fields of Seeds by Design in CA, a wholesale place where she had subcontracted out for seed production and the natural cross occurred there. I'm pretty saure I have more of those PL seeds that I sent to you that were sent to me by a tomato friend in FL and it's remained PL for him. And this time I'll be sure to pad the seeds with a white paper napkin which I now know works from the experiment that bcday and gardenmama and I did. So why not contact me in the Fall sometime if you're still interested. As for any variety called Black Brandywine, true or untrue, I have zero interest in growing it myself. __________________ Carolyn

May 26, 2009	#54
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Camo, if you're growing out the RL plants from what's supposed to be Black Brandywine introduced by TGS, what are you going to do about the different shaped fruits you're getting? Same comment for the PL plants since we know that there are PL plants that aren't giving the large dark beefsteak that the variety was supposed to be. I guess what I'm trying to say is that knowing that it's not genetically stable and knowing that Linda at TGS deleted it from her catalog and website two years ago b'c of the instability problem, would you then distribute seed from the various non BB's and if so, what would you name them if you did? The supposed True Black Brandywine is a completely different issue and the parentage is completely different, supposedly, from the TGS Black Brandywine. __________________ Carolyn

May 28, 2009	#60
retiree Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 404	Jumping genes Hi Maybe Taps or Polish C ? Neil G. (Canada)

November 14, 2008	#46
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Thanks, I guess I'll be doing some Googling and emailing then.

November 17, 2008	#48
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	Wow, I can't believe how great all the people here are. I promise I will propagate and increase the seeds. I'll send you a PM with my address. I usually try to save at least a 1/3 ounce or more from all my seeds. That way I have seed for myself, my plant sales and seed trades for at least a couple of years in case I can't harvest it again for a while. I originally got into heirlooms when I found your book at the SSE store in Madison quite a few years ago. At the time I had maybe a dozen of the varieties in the book. I'm not sure how many I currently have from your book as I haven't been able to find the book for a while.( My house is a mess except for my organization of my seeds.) I currently grow over 150 varieties and I think about 1/2 or more of them are heirlooms. But so far most of the varieties I've gotten are (or were) commercially offered, at least for a while. I do have a few varieties that are no longer offered by the companies I got them from. I know the PL Black Brandywine isn't a true "heirloom" but it is rare, and that's another of the things I "collect" in part so they don't disapear altogether and I guess that's more or less what a lot of the people here do too. Thanks much.

May 25, 2009	#49
ceresone Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: mo. Posts: 41	I definetly must save up money for Carolyns book!! Even at almost 72, theres still a lot to be learned! For instance, I bought into the True Black Brandywine--and have it in the garden right now. I must remember to watch it close.

May 26, 2009	#53
camochef Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 707	to further complicate the issue; last year I grew Black Brandywines from Marianna's, Amishland, and Heirloom tomatoes. Some were potato-leafed, some were regular-leafed. Some grew oblate, some grew tulip or pear-shaped, and some were globular. All tasted good! This year I will grow some of each again, and I even separated seeds by tomato shape. Also received seeds labled true Black Brandywine in a trade, which I'm planting also. So with some luck and accurite record keeping I'll offer my conclusions at the end of the season. To all those that liked Black Brandywine's, I suggest you also try Amazon Chocolate! Happy Gardening, Camo

May 26, 2009	#55
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	I've grown both the Black Brandywine seed sold by TGS and the True Black Brandywine sold by Bakers Creek. They are very different. The True Black Brandywine is worth growing if you don't happen to have a better black/purple potato leaf variety of which there definitely are some. But I'm not putting down True Black Brandywine by any means.

May 27, 2009	#57
TZ-OH6 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mid-Ohio Posts: 847	How can a potatoleaf be genetically unstable for leaf type? It is a homozygous recessive trait. The fruit characteristics would be all over the place if the variety were unstable, but not the leaf type.