Semi-Determinates your experience ?? - Page 4

Tracydr · June 15, 2015

I'm not sure disease resistance would be helpful where you live. Isn't it usually for diseases seen only in the south?

BlackBear · June 15, 2015

hmmm never thought about it that way .......Celebrity Resistance: VFFNTASt, cracking/

I think the VFF part of disease resistance or VFA is a good thing to have here

and for N (nemetodes ) I think a companion planting of marigolds with the Tomatoes will help a long way to helping with out a "N" resistance .......I guess having the full string of disease letters does not matter if the Tomato plant does not cooperate and set fruit for some reason ........

As most others without the disease 'letters ' behind their name are going great guns and

producing fruit ....It would be nice to have a late blight resistance built in for here .

I am hoping the super disease resistance would lengthen the production if a cold rain comes early and marks the beginning of the end of the season here.

Again if Big beef with the same set of resistance is producing bucketfuls . It is hard to keep trying a variety that does not seem to like to produce early or much here .....

travis · June 15, 2015

I agree. Grow whatever appears to be best adapted to your location.

zeroma · June 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by maf

It confused me for years, but basically the semideterminate gene, sdt, is a modifier of the determinate habit and has no effect on indeterminate plants. The determinate varies between 1 and 2 nodes between flower clusters, whereas the semi-determinate always has 2.

From http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../1074.full.pdf

?!?:

a simple stick type drawing would really help me 'see' the differences.

Anyone know where to find such a reference?

Zeroma

maf · June 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroma

?!?:

a simple stick type drawing would really help me 'see' the differences.

Anyone know where to find such a reference?

Zeroma

I don't have a stick drawing to hand but maybe this photo might be some help? If you follow the main stem in this picture you can see there are 3 leaf nodes between each flower/fruit cluster indicating indeterminate growth.

Follow the stem and you will see a pattern of leaf; leaf; leaf; fruit cluster; leaf; leaf; leaf; fruit cluster and so on...

indie2.jpg

MrBig46 · June 16, 2015

I found this. But those three leaves (or two) there are not much to see. I do not know if this helps.
Vladimír

zeroma · June 16, 2015

Thank you for the picture/illustration! it almost makes sense. HOWEVER:

Without going back and trying again to read what was confusing to me is this it:

Ind = leaf, leaf, leaf, flower leaf, leaf, leaf, flower (doesn't count the suckers)

Det = leaf, leaf, flower cluster, leaf, leaf, flower cluster

Semi Det = ???

are indeterinates 1 flower one fruit at a time?

are deterinates 1 cluster of flowers, like grape tomatoes

or isn't that simple?

I also recall something said about joints

Just want to get it into my head so I can teach the other fellow gardeners who all volunteer (like me) at our community garden.

And if I'm correct, you don't prune determinates. (EVER?)

We do prune the suckers and some of the excess growth from our Indeterminates.

What about the Semi-Determinates to prune or not to prune and how do you tell suckers that won't produce fruit on semi determinates?

Lots of curiosity here. I'm old, bear with me!!! But once I've got it, it's all good.

Zeroma

Cole_Robbie · June 16, 2015

I have to chuckle when seed companies tell me that a plant "seldom needs staking" because it is determinate. Most of my determinates are giant six-foot tall hedges. They have overwhelmed their stakes. They want to collapse and fall over.

bower · June 16, 2015

Zeroma,

The indeterminate pattern is an infinite repeat of: cluster - 3 leaves - cluster - 3 leaves...

Determinate and semideterminate can have all kinds of leaf patterns, whether one or two or even three leaves or a variable number between clusters, but at some point every main stem and shoot will come to an end, as it's shown in the picture, a cluster with a leaf on the end which doesn't continue to grow.

There are different sizes of determinate plants, with different number of leaves (or pattern of number of leaves) between clusters, but they all terminate eventually. The term "semi-determinate" is referring to larger than usual determinate plants with 6 or more clusters on the main stem before they terminate.

Once the main stem has terminated, the extra fruit come from side shoots (suckers) which also terminate after several clusters. This is true of both determinate and semi-determinate plants.

I think a lot of the confusion has come about because the original 'determinate' plants were bred for mechanical harvest, and a number of traits that were relevant to that purpose were bred in for that reason but they aren't all traits that came from one gene. The 'determinate' gene is called sp for "self pruning" (no the plant doesn't prune itself

either) -the name reflects the origin and purpose of that breeding program - farmers won't have to prune, call it self pruning. This gene specifically causes the stems to form a terminal bud. They also say that it " reduces the number of leaves between clusters" - but it doesn't actually control or determine the number of leaves, or pattern of leaves which is very variable. There are evidently other genes involved.

Likewise the "sp" gene doesn't control whether fruit will be all set first, before anything ripens - as if there was an either/or switch for "set fruit" and "ripen fruit" as some determinates do. This is a trait that was bred into the original determinates for mechanized production, but it's controlled by some other gene besides "sp".

So.. you can get various 'determinate' or 'semi-determinate' growth habits and ripening habits. But we are confused as to what a plant should be called, because we have lumped these traits together in what we expect of a 'determinate' plant. If it doesn't have all those expected traits, we think it must be "semi" something, or we don't know what to call it.

2 cents.

maf · June 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroma

Without going back and trying again to read what was confusing to me is this it:

Ind = leaf, leaf, leaf, flower leaf, leaf, leaf, flower (doesn't count the suckers)

Det = leaf, leaf, flower cluster, leaf, leaf, flower cluster

Semi Det = ???

Zeroma

Bower has hade a very good post above, but I wanted to emphasize that the determinate habit often has just one leaf between flower/fruit clusters once they start flowering.

BlackBear · June 16, 2015

hey wow ....all the info. super duper ! on a tough subject

so indeterminates do Not have to "terminate " growth in the season .

And determinates have a terminus of production eventually .

so the type of determinate expression that has an extended production then terminates .........

We are trying to call Semi determinate ....... ????

Why do we not just call these extended production ones ...

Extended determinates ? due to the extension before inevitable terminus .

maf · June 16, 2015

I have been meaning to grow a determinate variety in the greenhouse and prune and train it to one stem. It will be interesting to see if the growth terminates when grown in this fashion.

BlackBear · June 16, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by maf

I have been meaning to grow a determinate variety in the greenhouse and prune and train it to one stem. It will be interesting to see if the growth terminates when grown in this fashion.

are you saying you suspect there would be a lengthening of delay of eventual terminus

if all blossoms were only allowed to develop on one stem .?

....and that the plant hormones would just redirect or express the fruit potential onto the one trained stem ?

... production that would have occurred in the laterals that were 'pruned " ???.

or ..

is it not the case in determinates if one prunes. one just looses the potential of those fruiting branches ....as the terminus 'clock " of determinates will end on time no matter what ??

maf · June 18, 2015

I read an anecdotal post somewhere once that determinate plants can be grown pruned to a single stem, greenhouse style, and when grown in this fashion the main stem does not terminate but continues growing indefinitely. I have been meaning to try it out myself and see exactly how it works.

NarnianGarden · June 18, 2015

I would doubt that - even though I have seen all kinds of strange growth patterns. Why would pruning into one main branch change the genetics?

June 15, 2015	#47
BlackBear Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2015 Location: Nanaimo , BC Posts: 961	hmmm never thought about it that way .......Celebrity Resistance: VFFNTASt, cracking/ I think the VFF part of disease resistance or VFA is a good thing to have here and for N (nemetodes ) I think a companion planting of marigolds with the Tomatoes will help a long way to helping with out a "N" resistance .......I guess having the full string of disease letters does not matter if the Tomato plant does not cooperate and set fruit for some reason ........ As most others without the disease 'letters ' behind their name are going great guns and producing fruit ....It would be nice to have a late blight resistance built in for here . I am hoping the super disease resistance would lengthen the production if a cold rain comes early and marks the beginning of the end of the season here. Again if Big beef with the same set of resistance is producing bucketfuls . It is hard to keep trying a variety that does not seem to like to produce early or much here ..... __________________ So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time !

June 16, 2015	#56
BlackBear Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2015 Location: Nanaimo , BC Posts: 961	How about "extended" determinate hey wow ....all the info. super duper ! on a tough subject so indeterminates do Not have to "terminate " growth in the season . And determinates have a terminus of production eventually . so the type of determinate expression that has an extended production then terminates ......... We are trying to call Semi determinate ....... ???? Why do we not just call these extended production ones ... Extended determinates ? due to the extension before inevitable terminus . __________________ So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time !

June 15, 2015	#46
Tracydr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7 Posts: 3,207	I'm not sure disease resistance would be helpful where you live. Isn't it usually for diseases seen only in the south?

June 15, 2015	#48
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	I agree. Grow whatever appears to be best adapted to your location.

June 16, 2015	#52
zeroma Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 637	Thank you for the picture/illustration! it almost makes sense. HOWEVER: Without going back and trying again to read what was confusing to me is this it: Ind = leaf, leaf, leaf, flower leaf, leaf, leaf, flower (doesn't count the suckers) Det = leaf, leaf, flower cluster, leaf, leaf, flower cluster Semi Det = ??? are indeterinates 1 flower one fruit at a time? are deterinates 1 cluster of flowers, like grape tomatoes or isn't that simple? I also recall something said about joints Just want to get it into my head so I can teach the other fellow gardeners who all volunteer (like me) at our community garden. And if I'm correct, you don't prune determinates. (EVER?) We do prune the suckers and some of the excess growth from our Indeterminates. What about the Semi-Determinates to prune or not to prune and how do you tell suckers that won't produce fruit on semi determinates? Lots of curiosity here. I'm old, bear with me!!! But once I've got it, it's all good. Zeroma

June 16, 2015	#53
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I have to chuckle when seed companies tell me that a plant "seldom needs staking" because it is determinate. Most of my determinates are giant six-foot tall hedges. They have overwhelmed their stakes. They want to collapse and fall over.

June 16, 2015	#54
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	Zeroma, The indeterminate pattern is an infinite repeat of: cluster - 3 leaves - cluster - 3 leaves... Determinate and semideterminate can have all kinds of leaf patterns, whether one or two or even three leaves or a variable number between clusters, but at some point every main stem and shoot will come to an end, as it's shown in the picture, a cluster with a leaf on the end which doesn't continue to grow. There are different sizes of determinate plants, with different number of leaves (or pattern of number of leaves) between clusters, but they all terminate eventually. The term "semi-determinate" is referring to larger than usual determinate plants with 6 or more clusters on the main stem before they terminate. Once the main stem has terminated, the extra fruit come from side shoots (suckers) which also terminate after several clusters. This is true of both determinate and semi-determinate plants. I think a lot of the confusion has come about because the original 'determinate' plants were bred for mechanical harvest, and a number of traits that were relevant to that purpose were bred in for that reason but they aren't all traits that came from one gene. The 'determinate' gene is called sp for "self pruning" (no the plant doesn't prune itself either) -the name reflects the origin and purpose of that breeding program - farmers won't have to prune, call it self pruning. This gene specifically causes the stems to form a terminal bud. They also say that it " reduces the number of leaves between clusters" - but it doesn't actually control or determine the number of leaves, or pattern of leaves which is very variable. There are evidently other genes involved. Likewise the "sp" gene doesn't control whether fruit will be all set first, before anything ripens - as if there was an either/or switch for "set fruit" and "ripen fruit" as some determinates do. This is a trait that was bred into the original determinates for mechanized production, but it's controlled by some other gene besides "sp". So.. you can get various 'determinate' or 'semi-determinate' growth habits and ripening habits. But we are confused as to what a plant should be called, because we have lumped these traits together in what we expect of a 'determinate' plant. If it doesn't have all those expected traits, we think it must be "semi" something, or we don't know what to call it. 2 cents.

June 16, 2015	#57
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	I have been meaning to grow a determinate variety in the greenhouse and prune and train it to one stem. It will be interesting to see if the growth terminates when grown in this fashion.

June 18, 2015	#59
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	I read an anecdotal post somewhere once that determinate plants can be grown pruned to a single stem, greenhouse style, and when grown in this fashion the main stem does not terminate but continues growing indefinitely. I have been meaning to try it out myself and see exactly how it works.

June 18, 2015	#60
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	I would doubt that - even though I have seen all kinds of strange growth patterns. Why would pruning into one main branch change the genetics?