Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[Sun City Linda]

You know dono, the only hate filled post that I see here, that is filled with anger, personal attacks, and name calling would be yours. You dont have anything I want.

[travis]

Red: I understand how it is, because I had a hard time comprehending "semi-determinate" due to the plethora of definitions or attempted explanations that exist online for semi-determinate ... often conflicting.

And the more words I try to use in my explanation of semi-determinate and semi-indeterminate, the more I risk confusion as well.

Let me cut to the chase: All determinates and semi-determinates eventually terminate all forward growth with an efflorescence. All indeterminates and semi-indeterminates eventually terminate foward growth by disease, frost, predation, mechanical destruction, etc., and not due to terminal efflorescences.

Then the distinctions between det., semi-det or between indet. and semi-indet. are the patterns of efflorescences relative to the internode spacing.

Also, I see you did notice what I said about the MoCross semi-indeterminate ... that there were frequent and in-pattern efflorescences right on the node rather than in the internodal stem segments. Yes, I found that promotes higher production, far better production in fact.

Anyway, here is a pdf that may help explain how one group of horticultural scientists defined semi-determinate: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../1074.full.pdf

[Mischka]

Classy language there, Donald Hudgens. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
I didn't go after Bill Jeffers - and I never have had any issue with his section of Marianna's site that sells CLEARLY LABELED crossed seeds that are not stable. For those wanting to buy those varieties, have at it. F2-F6 growouts can be fun - as long as you know in advance that you're going to get different types of fruits, foliage, etc.

I also have no idea whether or not Bill approved having his unstable seeds sold in Marianna's section of the site labeled "New for 2013 Heirloom Seeds" without any disclaimer about them being unstable i.e. not growing true-to-type.

Regardless, they ARE being sold in that manner (listed as a stable variety), along with many other unstable crosses also being deliberately misrepresented as stable varieties.

This isn't about jealousy.

It's about ripping off people that have no idea they're going to waste their money and an entire growing season on seeds that will not grow as advertised and/or described.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

I don't know, but I think this thread has diverged a bit from the original intent.

I completely agree that selling unstable lines without proper labeling isn't a particularly nice thing to do. However we can't do anything about the way anyone runs their business. As has been stated, there is a market that is interested in these lines with proper labeling. And some without proper labeling, Tom Wagners line's are not identified as to what generation they are yet find a ready market. Everything will eventually find equilibrium, to each their own.

I also read into the original post a bit of a rail against using commercial hybrids in breeding, but I don't entirely agree with that. For some things it makes sense for am independant breeder. For example the license fees for some of the NCSU lines definately put them out of reach for a hobbiest, but Dr. Gardner advised me to just grow out one of the commercial lines to get the genes I wanted for a project. And if you look at the release notices, some of the NCSU releases (NC1 rinEC for one) have an unknown hybrid purchased at a local supermarket in their parentage. So even the pro's have successfully done this.

This is starting to look like it belongs in the "Your 2¢ Worth" forum.

[travis]

As I said, apparently in another thread which I cannot find right this minute, I fully intend to clear up a few issues that have appeared on the section where my seeds were intended to be sold. This also applies to the "new for 2013" issues, where someone might mistake my still segregating and recombining germplasm as "heirlooms" which they definitely are not ... yet. The particular issues seem to have occurred due to cross communications during a period of time when the lady who owns the site and myself, independently, were going through some life changes such as retirement and vacating an office I had occupied for over two decades, and she in the process of a home sale, farm sale, operational move, and reestablishment at a new and distant location.

I'm not asking for a pass, nor am I attempting a lame excuse. Corrections need to be made. They will be made. Give it a little time. It may not clear up all issues that everyone has. I intend that it will clear up any issues that anyone legitimately has with my end of it. I want it to be crystal clear what someone is getting when they get seeds that I have produced. Right now, it will take a while for me to get all the text prepared due to projects that take priority here at home right now.

Edit: Mark, if you explore the NCSU seed lines farther, you'll also notice the use of Blazer F1 as a parent in the pedigree of breeding lines, and the use of Amelia F1 as a source, after several generations, of 3 of NCSU's TSWV-resistant breeding lines.

With regard to "not being a nice thing to do," all I can say is that I try my best to carefully select parental inputs so that I have a fairly decent idea of what to expect in the F3 and subsequent filial generations. I try to explain what to expect when someone grows out my F3 and subsequent filial generations, and to make careful observations when selecting what will serve them better.

Also, I have repeatedly told people to plant all the seeds and closely observe the young plants, weeding out the inferior recombinations. This was made most clear to me when developing Big Cheef, which for several generations threw more weak and floppy sibling plants than strong and productive plants. I had to destroy many plants, saving only the best before I finally arrived at a fantastic line. I don't even know the second parent in Big Cheef, because I got the F2 seeds from another member of Tomatoville, many years ago. But after that experience, I try my best to pick two parents that will throw what I predict will be superior results in the F3 and beyond. I mean as best I can as a learn-as-I-go, hobby breeder :::smile:::

That's it from my end of it. As I said earlier. You may contact me at my email address if you need clarification of other issues with regard to my seeds and my methods.

Enjoy your 2013 gardens, good health and prosperity.

Peace,

Bill Jeffers

[Redbaron]

Bill,
Do you suppose the "semi-indeterminate" trait is caused by the recessive sdt gene partially expressing itself in the presence of the dominate sp gene? I know the page you sent me said the sp gene was fully dominate, but it would seem to me that is far more likely. They also said it was 82% and 70% that semi-determinate traits were from the single sdt gene. However, it is also possible to get results like that from 2 genes that are closely linked. If it is 2 genes closely linked (one recessive and one either dominate or incomplete dominate or possibly co-dominant), it would explain some of the stranger variations like what you are describing.

At least to my feeble mind it seems more likely than a whole new semi-indeterminate gene. Otherwise how unlikely would it be that me over 30 years ago on my first breeding attempt get such a closely similar phenotype crossing a semi determinate and an indeterminate in only the F3? The odds seem really really stacked against it, unless one of the parents of the lines you used is that long lost Rutgers semi determinate strain from Indiana I have been looking for.

[Boutique Tomatoes]

Bill, I completely understand what you're saying and that was not directed at you. If it appeared that way I am sorry.

There are a couple of sellers where an unsuspecting buyer may not realize they're buying an F1-F5 line. I wish all of them were labeled and instructions given for making selections like in the Create Your Own Heirloom section of Marianna's where yours are offered.

[The Future]

Originally Posted by travis

Allow me to explain a bit ...

The photo in the link provided by Mischka shows a tomato picked in 2011 off an F2 MoCross vine. Therefore the seeds taken from that F2 fruit are F4 seeds. I grew out those F4 seeds in 2012, selected individual vines from that grow-out, and saved the resulting F5 seeds according to selected plant and fruit characteristics.

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

As for hotset vines, I am genuinely interested in them. My question: what was the LOW temperature on the days the fruit was said to set?

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by The Future

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

As for hotset vines, I am genuinely interested in them. My question: what was the LOW temperature on the days the fruit was said to set?

I was thrown by the wording at first myself, but near as I can tell what he meant was he took seed from that F2 and grew plants....those plants would be F3's....so seeds from those F3's that he saved would grow F4 plants.

[travis]

Originally Posted by The Future

Can someone explain to me how seeds from a F2 plant are classified as F4 seeds? My logic says they would be F3.

You are correct. I typed in error in that sentence. If you read the second paragraph of the same message, you will see that I typed the correct filial generation sequence for the same tomatoes. Sorry for the mistake. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I have made the necessary corrections in red in the message you quoted.

Originally Posted by travis

The F3 seed taken from the 2011, F2 tomato was sold in 2012, and again this year, as MOX311S (MoCross, F3, 2011 production year, from a semi-indeterminate vine) ... that's what the coded designation indicates. As with the same batch of F3 seeds which I grew-out in 2012, I expect others to see what I saw ...

[surf4grrl]

I find very unfortunate and sad, actually that this is being spun as jealousy. Someone sounds like they have a North Korea complex.

Steve's problem is with theft, I think that was outlined clearly. If you look back onto another forum which was an offshoot for only tomatoes; things have been said along similar lines, which effectively spelled the demise of said forum. There's so much swapping going on of crosses; it's easy for an individuals to swipe someone elses work. This is a good lesson for us all; don't swap unless you want your work possibly stolen. That, or in better business arrangements, get a reciprocal contract.

Good on Bill for being truthful about his crosses. My problem is I was deceived on purpose about something I was given. Again, this has been outlined clearly over time - which others also echoed similar sentiments. Now I won't grow it or sell because I might as well start selling "Sungolds" as "surf4grrls orange" or "Mortgage Lifter" as "Enormous red giant".

Not everyone is going to get along and like each other, but please let's at least start with being honest about we are actually growing, who we got it from, not re-naming stuff that isn't yours, not taking someone else work and claiming credit - I think you all get the point.

I appreciate crosses and breeding and will buy those seeds, but only from reputable sellers. This isn't the issue. It's about what I feel is deliberate deception and theft in order to race to the top of the very non-existent "king of all tomatoes" or some such asinine nonsense.

[surf4grrl]

Hot gosh darnoodley! You know, it occurred to me since the person that gave me Sweet Beverley said it was completely stable, and gee I got these segregants - I guess it crossed in my field..hmmmmm......



That's means I have 2 or 3 new varieties to grow out and name!!!! Imagine that!

I'll let Doublehelix (and I have a few others in mind) name them - how awesome would that be...

[Mischka]

Sweet Beverley must be one of those "create your own heirloom" varieties that Dean and Marianna forgot to warn folks about, right? You know, like most of the other ones they listed under the category "New for 2013 Heirloom Seeds".

Let's ask all the poor folks that bought seeds for Sweet Beverley from Baker Creek last season and found out the hard way that the variety is as unstable as Lindsay Lohan on a Friday night. Watch out for Sweet Sharon too.... Sweet Beverley's equally unstable "sister".

[Tapout]

Ever lose your car keys? That is how I feel after reading this thread.

[SpookyShoe]

I see you grow tomatoes in central Arkansas. My in-laws live in El Dorado and it was there that I met a friend of my in-laws who was growing a tomato he called Indian Stripe. He had a fabulous garden and always saved his own seed. I sent some of the seed to Carolyn, and because of her, the this tomato is widespead now.

My father-in-law, who is 94, remembers the tomato Marglobe being grown in his parents' garden. He has also commented that the tomato Bradley was very popular in the area for family consumption and to sell at market.

Donna