100% leaf mulch this year - thoughts on deficiencies?

[drew51]

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/can-ash...zer-88927.html
http://blog.mlive.com/gardening/2007...lp_or_hur.html

The jury still may be out if safe or not?
http://www.gardenality.com/Questions...nd-Plants.html

I saw a post on GW where Kingsford was asked can charcoal ashes be used in gardening. And they said no.
They would sell more product if they said yes.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...205547592.html

From that thread... about coal ash (not charcoal). Interesting.


So, coal is really old plant material that can be processed into almost pure carbon. Charcoal is wood that is burned down into almost pure carbon. Not much difference, in my book. End of coal lesson.


Not much of a difference, no. But there is a difference. And unfortunately, this difference can cause a very serious set of problems if you use coal ash -- not plain charcoal ash -- anywhere in a garden. Coal ash contains small but harmful amounts of toxic metals, many of which are usually referred to as heavy metals. Including "arsenic, lead, mercury, nickel, vanadium, beryllium, cadmium, barium, chromium, copper, molybdenum, zinc, selenium and radium."

[feldon30]

Thanks for this thread. I fashioned a leaf holder and put it on a friend's trailer and drove around the neighborhood scooping up leaves. I ended up doing 6 loads which amounted to approx 10 cubic yards of loose dried leaves.




All piled up and still unchopped

My gardening partner and I have since chopped them up and spread them over the 1200 sq foot of garden space. After reading this thread I've decided not to till them into my areas, but to leave them as a blanket and till them in in the spring if they still haven't broken down.

[solid7]

Originally Posted by drew51

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/can-ash...zer-88927.html
http://blog.mlive.com/gardening/2007...lp_or_hur.html

The jury still may be out if safe or not?
http://www.gardenality.com/Questions...nd-Plants.html

I saw a post on GW where Kingsford was asked can charcoal ashes be used in gardening. And they said no.
They would sell more product if they said yes.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...205547592.html

From that thread... about coal ash (not charcoal). Interesting.


So, coal is really old plant material that can be processed into almost pure carbon. Charcoal is wood that is burned down into almost pure carbon. Not much difference, in my book. End of coal lesson.


Not much of a difference, no. But there is a difference. And unfortunately, this difference can cause a very serious set of problems if you use coal ash -- not plain charcoal ash -- anywhere in a garden. Coal ash contains small but harmful amounts of toxic metals, many of which are usually referred to as heavy metals. Including "arsenic, lead, mercury, nickel, vanadium, beryllium, cadmium, barium, chromium, copper, molybdenum, zinc, selenium and radium."

I cook with lump charcoal. Which, of course, is just pre-burnt lumps of wood.

I would never use that other garbage. To cook, or to sprinkle on my plants.

[solid7]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

It appears you overapplied to the point of potassium toxicity. Plants have limits. More is not necessarily better. I computed 1 cup wood ash per 5 gallons per year or so as a reasonable limit.

I guess you missed the point that I said it produced the best crops I've ever had. Not sure how you figure that's potassium toxicity, but whatever.

The reason that I don't get those good crops anymore, is because I don't live in the same house. Being that I don't live in the same house, it should go without saying that I didn't bring the garden with me.

Please don't try to force a point so hard that you take away what I'm really saying. There are many different schools of thought on organic gardening, and there are still conflicting opinions even on the science of plants and nutrient uptake. If you show me one study that says X, I'll show you one that says Y. Like religions, most people tend to follow the school of thought that appeals to them most, or that they were first exposed to. In the end, most people are going to follow a path that follows a bit of science, and a bit of intuition. to that end, I believe that the OP is on the right path with his choice of actions.

[solid7]

Originally Posted by drew51

Yes, like PH which is notorious for locking nutrients out.Besides the potassium toxicity of ash, the PH was probably off the scale basic. When you stopped using them, the PH fell like a rock! Thus making nutrients became available once again. Also charcoal is the worst! It contains many additives, and such. You will never see it suggested to use in any garden. Wood ash yes, charcoal, absolutely not unless you like petroleum byproducts and chemical stabilizers.

No... My soil has a PH of almost 8.5, with no help from anything else. And yet, even after adding wood ash, things grew - even thrived. I never stopped, FWIW.

A living soil web will go a long ways in making nutrients available, that would not otherwise be available in a synthetic fertilized environment. Container gardeners know this. I don't own PH meters. A growing medium with a high concentration of organic matter will often thrive in spite of a non-optimal PH.

Controversial subject. Too big for this thread. Back on topic.

[Lindalana]

Chiming in here, done leaf mold for years for my perennial garden and small veggie bed.
Mostly oak leaves, left on the beds after falling. No tilling, watering or fertilizing gardens.
No change in ph, leaves tend to stay for long time, but since I plant very tightly, by the time plants are up in spring, no leaves are seen anymore. No need to bother with tilling. Shredding, wetting, adding something on top like wood chips, stones, cardboard will decompose quicker.
This year first time noted manganese deficiency. Happens to forests I hear.
Small amount of calcium is ok every year without soil testing and I mean like 5 lbs per 1000 sq ft.

[AlittleSalt]

I'll try to add a few more thoughts to this. I think oak leaves in the garden vastly improves the soil. The past 4 years have shown continued proof of this in our garden. Mentioned above, using human urine is an organic form of nitrogen. Again, I agree, but use only basically clear urine. If it is cloudy or you are sick - don't use it. Also using too much nitrogen will cause plants to produce huge leafy plants without much fruit. (Especially Tomatoes)

Oak leaves that are turned into the silt/sandy soil in my garden in late December decompose quickly. By April of the next year, I cannot find a single leaf when I dig into the soil. Instead, the soil is more friable and you can see tiny leaf particles. Turning the soil may affect worms. I hardly ever find an earthworm in my garden soil, but there wasn't any earthworms there before either.

There are three possible drawbacks I have thought about or experienced:

There is a possible negative drawback to leaving oak leaves above ground from December through March. Insects overwinter in leaves...especially stink bugs.

Another possible negative drawback to tilling or turning oak leaves into the soil is when those leaves become matted. For me, that happened when I dug in about 5 inches of leaves. For whatever reason, when leaves are all stuck together (Matted) - they do not break down fast. Instead, they turn a blackish color, get moldy/mildew, and maintain their leaf shape. I'm not sure if that is good or bad thing? But I'm guessing it is probably not a good thing.

The last thing isn't a negative thing for the plants growing in it, but for the gardener. Tilling or digging in leaves makes silt and sandy soil spongy. Plants love it, but for us gardeners, you sink into the ground ever step you take. Gophers and ground dwelling creatures have a day-in-the-park in your spongy soil.

My personal experience: Adding oak leaves to the dirt that previous generations called useless - has now become soil the feeds huge, healthy, productive plants. I learned that from reading Rodale and watching what the commercial farmers are doing with the same soil less than a mile away.

I believe in using organics first, but I also believe in using man-made fertilizer and pesticides very responsibly.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by solid7

I cook with lump charcoal. Which, of course, is just pre-burnt lumps of wood.

I would never use that other garbage. To cook, or to sprinkle on my plants.

I've tried the lump, and it sparks a lot, burns uneven, and too hot. At my cottage I use wood coals for BBQ at times. I start a fire and harvest the hot cinders. It burns even, doesn't spark, and adds whatever flavor wood I'm using. Oak, maple or ash. I also just use regular charcoal in a pinch.
I do use the lump on occasion, but I'm not impressed with it. Ingredients are natural in all products, just added stuff in the briquettes, all are organic, if you read the links I posted, info is there. None are dangerous to cook with. For burgers lump is not going to make any difference. For finer cuts, maybe, but it doesn't touch real wood coals. I just harvested 2 x 100 foot trees, one was oak, one was maple. See all those trees! Keeps me in shape!
See all these trees, well the leaves are unreal. I could fill a 44 wheeler a few times.

[drew51]

At my house I have mostly maple leaves and I use them. But I do shred them twice first. I need to use them whole too to cover my blackberries. Many are not hardy here. The leaves protect them through the winter. First I cover as much as I can with leaves, then i throw burlap over them. here it is before the burlap.
The semi-erect blackberries have to rely on the burlap. On the ground are trailing types. In the spring I will tie them to the trellis. A fence, and a trellis are there. hard to see. I grow Triple Crown, Chester, Columbia Star, Loch Ness, Navaho, Natchez, Tayberry, Wyeberry, Boysenberry, Black Diamond, Marion, and Siskiyou. Only part of my beds pictured.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by solid7

... Please don't try to force a point ...

I am an agriculturist. I am happy to help you achieve great results with whatever gardening philosophy you wish to employ: (a) completely natural [non-manufactured], (b) vegan organic, (c) USDA NOP certified organic, (d) inorganic.

This is not about heuristics, it's about actual biological sciences. If you don't care for it, then please either stop reading my posts or watch me fade into the distance ...

[drew51]

Originally Posted by solid7

No... My soil has a PH of almost 8.5, with no help from anything else. And yet, even after adding wood ash, things grew - even thrived. I never stopped, FWIW.

A living soil web will go a long ways in making nutrients available, PH.

Even break the laws of physics I'm impressed! I would get another PH meter.

[ScottinAtlanta]

Feldon, you are a pip! I have snatched around 100 bags of leaves from my neighbors sidewalks, but never thought of a special leaf snatching truck. Wow!

Solid7 writes " For the OP... I hope it's not off topic, because I know you're talking about leaf mulch. But have you ever considered using your leaves as part of a longer term strategy? Like lasagna gardening? Because I personally like a more "no-till" approach, so as not to disturb the soil web, destroy organisms, (especially worms) and to avoid disruption of carbon sequestration." Those are great ideas for new beds. At this point, my soil is already in place, so I am trying to find lazy gardener solutions to adding nutrients for the next season. I also have a large compost pile, and use the compost very generously when planting out.

Thanks to everyone for their comments here. Very useful for me to do risk assessment on the leaf mulch strategy. The soil layer is now 6 inches in my beds and the leaf mulch layer is 6 inches. I continue to mix in coffee grounds, and will sprinkle some wood ash, and leave the rest to worms and God. I expect the leaf mulch layer will diminish to around 2 inches by late March 2015, when we do our planting out here in Atlanta.

[solid7]

Originally Posted by drew51

Even break the laws of physics I'm impressed! I would get another PH meter.

I know that was intended to be a snarky hit and run. But it doesn't make you right, or me wrong.

For what it's worth I broke no laws of physics. I believe that you meant to say laws of nature, as this concept is tied not to physics, but chemistry/biological sciences.

Believe it or not, the science of growing plants is not finished. We are still learning, and useful contributions are still being made. That said, not everyone has the luxury of using the scientific method. Sure, if you were growing a cash crop, it's the best way, because controlling all parameters ensures you the most effective way to manage and diagnose issues. But then, sometimes, you just have some old country bumpkin (like myself) who is sitting around on a pile of leaves and wood ash. You know... what's AVAILABLE to him. And by god, he's going to use it.

My father taught me to use wood ash. In fact, from our wood burning stove, he put a couple HUNDRED pounds down every year, over an area just a tad bigger than what was mentioned in this thread. The only issue he ever had with his plants, was abundance. Of course, you'll tell me that flies in the face of physics.

I am one of those who subscribes to the theory, that if you put down enough organic matter, (of the right type) nature will do the rest. Compost in place, if you will. My previously mentioned bananas - of which I have never managed to best those harvests - were mulched every year with 12" of horse manure, as much wood ash as I could muster, and capped off with bamboo leaves. And I peed on them whenever the urge struck. Best bananas EVER.

It has been my experience that most people are completely resistant to ideas that are not their own, or not the ones they have previously accepted. But if for no other purpose than a good read, maybe one could choose to see what other ideas are being floated out there. Maybe my earth shattering methods aren't really so earth shattering, after all...

[solid7]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

I am an agriculturist. I am happy to help you achieve great results with whatever gardening philosophy you wish to employ: (a) completely natural [non-manufactured], (b) vegan organic, (c) USDA NOP certified organic, (d) inorganic.

This is not about heuristics, it's about actual biological sciences. If you don't care for it, then please either stop reading my posts or watch me fade into the distance ...

Just wow.

I responded because you completely went down the rabbit hole on one of my posts - and it was based on either a simple misunderstanding, or a total comprehension failure. (I would have given you the benefit of the doubt)

Really, no need to get pious or righteously indignant. I've been told that this is a friendly forum, but that certainly wasn't my idea of friendly!

[drew51]

As fas as my comment, I was watching an old Star Trek episode on the BBC! PH has given me such headaches, once I figured out the problem, the sailing was smooth. I use wood ash, but throw the charcoal out. But only at my cottage. No wood fires here in the city, or charcoal either. I use petroleum products. I too like to stay as organic as possible, but tough with peach trees. Brown rot is the culprit. My problem with many organic approaches is they seem to forget pathogens/pests are natural too. Some pests like SWD fruit fly love soft fruits even those organically grown. Certain pests are near impossible to eliminate by any method. Last time I had this discussion someone send me a link to an organic orchard lecture on video. The problem was the guy was only getting 15% yields mostly due to brown rot. He blamed the weather. I thought that was rather funny. I'm thinking of giving up on peaches as I don't like using the chemicals. Seems you have to to get decent yields in certain environments. I'm talking peaches here. Many other items are a bit easier to grow.
But I see you're light years ahead of us all (yes, another Star Trek reference).
Hey glad it works for you, I wish it worked for me. All gardening is local. One of farmer Fred's rules of gardening. Another is "Everything you know is wrong". Probably my favorite rule of his.
As you mention we really are still clueless about a lot of things.
I think one of the most ironic things ever is your last two posts, as that is exactly what I would have said to you. Read you own advice.

I too hate to throw anything out if I can use it. But in suburbia, I find the pure volume of organic matter overwhelming and impossible to use it all. I'm in dire need of a compost pile, but have no room. I would have to sacrifice garden space for one.
Again reference to the last rule I quoted, (everything you know is wrong). I heard the electric are is actually more polluting than a gas one. Due to what is needed to make and maintain it. This was the conclusion of a scientific study. I didn't read the details, but can see why. Like here in MI most of out electricity is generated with coal. Seems silly to burn a fossil fuel to make electricity to use instead of a fossil fuel.
Of course soon we won't be able to use coal, as the industry is being regulated out of existence. It will be interesting to see what happens.