Lets try this seed saving thing again

[seaeagle]

Sue, you don't have much of a fungal coat, but I am sure you are fine.

Here are some tips on how to get an awesome fungal coat, at least it works for me.

1-Extract your seeds from the tomato

2-Include chunks of the tomato and squeeze the juice out.

3-Never ever add water unless absolutely necessary

4-Try to ferment in a controlled temperature of around 80 degrees give or take a few degrees

5-Never ever cover the container the seeds are fermenting in

6-Do NOT stir or swirl until you have a fungal coat, sit on your hands if you must

7-After you see a fungal coat then you can stir

Doing this I have been getting really nasty fungal coats in about 36 hours ,the kind where it looks like you added cotton balls to your jar.Good Stuff

I let it ferment for another day stirring and swirling at will

And Carolyn, I think we agree on most of these points

[AlittleSalt]

SueCT, I'm beginning to think that the just plain-ole paper plates might be a thing of the past. I bought several white paper plate packs and every one of them has some sort of plastic-like film on them.

So, I added a step to the way I start drying the seeds. After rinsing them clean, I put them in a folded paper towel and give it a light squeeze to help dry them better. Then I put them on a paper plate.

[ContainerTed]

Nice plate, Sue. Looks like about 150 or so seeds, all nicely sized. I'm curious as to whether or not you are finding the seeds sticking a bit to that "coated" paper plate. I have always used "uncoated" simply for the reason that when the seeds are just about done drying, they release from the paper plate and are easily pushed around. I've always felt like the uncoated plates absorb some of the moisture from the seeds and therefore expedite the drying process.

Seaeagle, if you want the stink in your house, then by all means don't cover your containers. But if you want to control the stink and keep things inside where they are less susceptible to catastrophic events, then put the lids on and gain control of the process. Either way, both roads lead to the desired destination.

I've always looked for ways of doing this that are "less messy" and less "stinky". The formation of blocks and mats of fungus simply tell us how much fungus in on the top of the mixture. When the fungus at the top of the liquid becomes more and more concentrated, excess comes out of solution and is manifested as floating particles. I don't think the particles are reacting with the seeds as much as the fungus that's still in solution. By swirling once or twice a day from the beginning, the fungus is dispersed thruout the liquid more evenly. When the fungus begins to come out of solution and form solids, then one can assume the concentration of fungus still in solution is very high.

Personally, I want the maximum concentration of fungus to stay in solution where it has easier contact with the outer surface of the seeds. Just my preference, yours may be different.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

SueCT, I'm beginning to think that the just plain-ole paper plates might be a thing of the past. I bought several white paper plate packs and every one of them has some sort of plastic-like film on them.

So, I added a step to the way I start drying the seeds. After rinsing them clean, I put them in a folded paper towel and give it a light squeeze to help dry them better. Then I put them on a paper plate.

Salty, I, too, thought that the uncoated paper plates were going out, but then, when I went looking, I found that they are still easy to find.

Here's the offerings from Walmart, Dollar Store, and Hometown IGA. It was about 2 bucks per hundred plates on average. I also reuse the plates as many as 3 or 4 times. It all depends on how "wrinkled" the center section gets, and this depends on how wet the seeds are when they come out of the strainer.

[AlittleSalt]

Great Value! I didn't look at Walmart... and my wife and son both work there.

But then again, when we shop at Walmart - ((Everyone)) has to stop and talk to my wife, and we usually forget what we went there for.

Thank You Ted

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Great Value! I didn't look at Walmart... and my wife and son both work there.

But then again, when we shop at Walmart - ((Everyone)) has to stop and talk to my wife, and we usually forget what we went there for.

Thank You Ted

Salt I just bought 200 regular Hill Country Fare paper plates a HEB.

For seeds I prefer the fancy coated ones they dont stick as bad.but glass is best.
And I have also discovered I have been miss spelling fare for its proper usage.

And the word Fare in hill country fare has nothing to do with a fair.
It has to do with dinning.
So lets see if I get this right.
The fair haired girl paid the fare on the train to go to the store to buy Hill Country Fare Plates.
While there she saw an unmarried man so she considered him fair game and asked him to the fair.
Their relationship fared well but right now it wouldn't be fair to come to any conclusions.

Next therefor and therefore.



Worth

[SueCT]

Well, ok. Proceedures differ from one person to another and there does not seem to be only one "right" way. I did another canner load of tomatoes today and had 3 ML tomatoes to go in so I squeezed some of the seeds from each into a new container before adding them to the pile to go into the jars. I will try placing it in my craft room where there is no ac unit, with the cover off and not touching them for a few days. If they stink too much they go outside or the cover goes on. I might test germinate a few seeds from each and see if I see a difference. Either way I will mark the seeds by which method was used and see if I see a difference. At least if/when I share the seeds if someone is picky about the method I will know which is which. Although if they are asking for free seeds, maybe they won't be too picky, lol. There also seems to be a lack of consensus on the bleach rinse. No good data that it helps, but it might increase germination? I did do it for this batch but not sure about the next. Is there any reason NOT to do it? Could it hurt?

I did try to dislodge a seed or two from the coated plate and they don't appear to be stuck much at all. I do have glass, of coarse, didn't know that was even better.

One more question. I read in another thread where someone said 3-4 days is the max for fermenting seeds. I didn' t know that and went a week. Will I have poorer germination because of that? Is that also something people disagree a bit on, or is it a rule of thumb everyone pretty much follows?

[seaeagle]

Sue you typed;"One more question. I read in another thread where someone said 3-4 days is the max for fermenting seeds. I didn' t know that and went a week. Will I have poorer germination because of that? Is that also something people disagree a bit on, or is it a rule of thumb everyone pretty much follows?"

Here is an excellent research report done in Africa detailing why you should keep your fermentation as short as possible.I rarely go into the 4th day

http://www.jsd-africa.com/Jsda/V10N4...tatioNTime.pdf

You typed, "There also seems to be a lack of consensus on the bleach rinse. No good data that it helps, but it might increase germination? I did do it for this batch but not sure about the next. Is there any reason NOT to do it? Could it hurt?"

Fermentation extraction is not a reliable method to remove bacterial pathogens, so yes bleach treatment does help if you have any of those.And yes there is data to support this.Government data, University data and many other research documents.The only reason not to do it would if you didn't do it right or planned to use it on old seeds. It is important to use the Surfactant.I am not sure if you used that or not.I read about it in a 65 page research paper that seemed like a book.

Anyway, here is a fact sheet co written by Sally Miller, who happens to be one of the worlds leading plant pathologists.If she signed her name to it you can believe it.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3085.html

[SueCT]

No, I didn't use a surfactant, and no where has anyone up until now mentioned that they do or I should. You know I am not a commercial seed grower, right? I have no idea what that surfactant is or where I would get it. This seems to be getting way beyond what the average home gardener is going to do. AND then I am supposed to plant 100 seeds and test the germination percentage to find out if I did it correctly and how the seed reacted before I proceed with the rest?!?!? There wouldn't BE many left after that. That is really more than I am willing to do to save some seeds from garden. Assuming I am not going to spend 20.00+ for this wetting agent, it is better not to use bleach? I must say, although the information is appreciated after a week or more of following the advice I received it is a little discouraging to find out I still did it all wrong.

One thing I noticed in the above paper is that they did stir the seed not leave it untouched to develop a stronger fungal mat, but also there is no mention of testing for pathogens on the seed coat after only 1 or 2 or 3 days of fermentation. How much of a fungal mat is likely to develop after 1 day or even 2 days? How much do shorter fermentation times even help to get rid of pathogens? I am starting a new batch from the 3 ML tomatoes as I mentioned and I am still not sure. Should I leave it untouched or stir as they did in the research report?

[Cole_Robbie]

I think the test of 100 seeds is for seed sellers who need to be able to give the germination percentage. I tested my first batches with just six seeds in a six-pack cell tray. You should be able to tell from a much smaller sample if the seeds are good.

[Father'sDaughter]

On the subject of coated paper plates -- the bottom is not coated, so just turn them inside out!

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by SueCT

No, I didn't use a surfactant, and no where has anyone up until now mentioned that they do or I should. You know I am not a commercial seed grower, right? I have no idea what that surfactant is or where I would get it. This seems to be getting way beyond what the average home gardener is going to do. AND then I am supposed to plant 100 seeds and test the germination percentage to find out if I did it correctly and how the seed reacted before I proceed with the rest?!?!? There wouldn't BE many left after that. That is really more than I am willing to do to save some seeds from garden. Assuming I am not going to spend 20.00+ for this wetting agent, it is better not to use bleach? I must say, although the information is appreciated after a week or more of following the advice I received it is a little discouraging to find out I still did it all wrong.

One thing I noticed in the above paper is that they did stir the seed not leave it untouched to develop a stronger fungal mat, but also there is no mention of testing for pathogens on the seed coat after only 1 or 2 or 3 days of fermentation. How much of a fungal mat is likely to develop after 1 day or even 2 days? How much do shorter fermentation times even help to get rid of pathogens? I am starting a new batch from the 3 ML tomatoes as I mentioned and I am still not sure. Should I leave it untouched or stir as they did in the research report?

I apologize Sue, I did complicate things.My opinion is if your tomato plants are healthy just forget the bleach process or do it without the surfactant .I was just pointing out the correct way to do it.As for the seed test like Cole_Robbie said just do it in a smaller lot.

They stirred every 3 hours because they had follow some kind of uniform protocol for all the tests.Plus they had large batches.

Let's use the common sense approach and ask the question;

What benefit is there to stirring the tomato seed mixture prior to fermentation beginning?

My answer is, there is no benefit.All you are stirring is tomato juice and seeds that are probably still locked in the jell.You also might be delaying fermentation and probably are delaying the formation of the fungal mat.And yes stirring is important, but only after fermentation has begun mainly to make sure that all the seeds are exposed uniformly to the process and that none are stuck together

The main purpose of the link I gave you was to test germination rates in different time periods to find the best length of time to ferment without losing a lot of seed.Without looking I think their recommendation was 3 days.

Sue, if you still don't get a fungal mat with the way I recommended it, and it is possible you may not, as long as you smell the fermentation, you are fine.I still think you will get a fungal coat.

There is one more method that is probably the easiest and may be just as effective.The Oxyclean method I think it is called.Cole_Robbie does it so he would be the one to ask about it. Actually a lot of people use it.

[SueCT]

Thanks for the advice. Will have to wait and see how they germinate when I eventually get around to testing them.

[JRinPA]

Hang in there Sue. I think I learned some things here so your seed saving trials are at least helping others. I put my saved seeds out in large single batches cups for the first time this year to ferment and it was for much more than 3-4 days, unstirred. They mostly dried up in the heat and the seeds turned black/brown. I thought this was probably bad so the next batch I only left out a week, and they looked okay. Unfortunately I have had no germination to speak of from either batch. Luckily it is not really a big loss; the only heirloom seeds were grown from johnny's brandywines.

The 3-5 days indoors listed on this thread is a much different schedule from what I read earlier this summer! I have a cup outside since the 5th and some more since the 8th that were inside, just moved out today. They both have white on top so I guess now is the time to rinse and test again.

[ContainerTed]

Some folks here have lost sight of the goal of fermentation. Some have forgotten how that fungus mat forms. So, here's one last shot at sanity.

I capture seeds from the tomato into a strainer. While in this strainer, they are rubbed against the strainer sufficiently to burst the seed gel sac and release the liquid. If you don't manually break the gel sacs, then you have to wait for the fungus to form and then eat the sacs and release the gel. I like to give my seeds a head start on that. Then and only then are they placed into a jar. If you don't burst the sacs with your fingers, you're a day behind.

The fungus will begin forming in the liquid. It doesn't form evenly thruout the liquid. If you don't stir the soup in the jar, the fungus will concentrate in some areas while other areas may not have any at all. The fungus will continue to grow and replicate within the liquid until there is enough to cause some to come out of solution. This will float to the surface and begin the forming of the "mat". There might still be areas in the jar that have no fungus concentration at all. Stirring will insure that all areas have equal concentration thruout the jar, and that all seeds are getting the same progress at the same time.

Fermentation is not a test to see how long your seeds can sit in the fermentation process before they either rot or germinate. Fermentation is for dissolving the gel sacs and killing some pathogens while maintaining seed viability.

Yes, my process has the seeds in the soup for a shorter time. Does this mean my fermentation kills fewer pathogens. Possibly so. That's why I added the chlorox rinse which finishes that job quite well.

I ferment more than a hundred thousand seeds each year and my germination rates are consistantly 98% and above. It is my opinion that keeping seeds in the jar past day 6 is unnecessary and extremely risky. I take those seeds out and do some scouring cleanser scrubbing if they are not clean.

So, what do you want from those seeds and your efforts? Is it seeds that will germinate and not carry fungal diseases to your new plants? Or is it bragging rights on how long you kept seeds in an extremely risky scenario and still got one or two to produce a plant? That's a rhetorical question.

So, what is the real goal. I believe it's to remove the gel sacs and kill pathogens while maintaining the maximum viability, and to do so in minimum time. All of the time the seeds are soft and wet is time that accidents can happen and destroy them.


I'll edit to say that this is how I do it. Now, turn the page and read Carolyn's post. I hope you can see that I agree with her totally and completely. Any procedure which gets the results you want is the one you should use. But, if you're looking for some answers to problems in your method, then you might find something in my post or other posts to help you refine your fermentation procedures. Just don't lose sight of the final objective. And, KISS - Keep It Simple.