The reason for Brandywine sudduth's poor yield

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

My explanation for why Michael lists so many varieties as having "excellent flavor", even varieties which have been dismissed by others, is his growing methods.

Not sure how that can be misunderstood.

I didn't misunderstand it at all.

My point was that Michael is saying his listed varieties taste excellent and you're saying it's due to his organic ways of growing. Fine.

Until a few years ago I didn't routinely use organic methods and listed many of my varieties as either excellent, outstanding or superb b'c I have a graded list of taste adjectives that I use. And some of those I dubbed very good, good and fair, to go down the scale.

And I couldn't and didn't attribute outstanding taste or whatever word one wants to use, to organic growing.

[tomakers]

Having used both organic methods(leaf mold is my favorite) and fertilizer, separately and even together, for better than 35 years, I find it extremely difficult to believe fertilization/cultivation methods make any difference in taste. If a tomato tastes good to someone, it will taste good to the same person no matter how it is grown.
I have heard the claim many times over many years, that organically grown tastes better, but IMHO there is NO taste difference detectable.
JMO,
Tom

PS - My best yields have been produced using a combination of the 2 methods. All the organic matter I can find and 15-15-15, 1/2 - 1 tsp every 7-10 days until bloom(as needed), then 12-24-12 once or twice at the same amount and interval.

[dice]

[organic vs inorganic]
Probably need a side-by-side comparison and a Brix test (over
multiple years with multiple cultivars) to resolve this question
to everyone's satisfaction. And even then, did you have the
right mix of organic components, and what was the base soil
that they were mixed into (if any) like?

There are other reasons to use mostly or all organic, anyway,
which are to let earthworms do more of the work of cultivating,
let earthworms, fungi, and bacteria shoulder more of the cost
of providing nutrients, to keep excess fertilizer out of the
streams, rivers, and aquifers (organics are slower release than
most inorganics), and to keep unwanted byproducts of industrial
chemical processes out of your food.

Edit:
PS: Organics feed the soil microfauna and build up humates in
the soil. That seems to me a long-term advantage for soil usability
(and hence long-term productivity) regardless of short-term
comparisons of per-plant productivity and/or Brix readings.

For large scale agriculture, however, "all organic" may not be
an option. I read a paper recently which made a case that
the amount of edible food produced worldwide simply could not be
produced at all without using inorganic fertilizers. That paper
claimed that the volume of organic sources of nutrients required
to replace the inorganic fertilizers in use simply does not exist
in agriculturally usable forms.

Still, it is not as if we are efficient as a society at recycling the
nutrients in waste organic matter. Even if we could not completely
replace inorganic fertilizers, we could certainly make a bigger
dent in the use of those than we do now.

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And I couldn't and didn't attribute outstanding taste or whatever word one wants to use, to organic growing.

Yes... but How would you know?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

Yes... but How would you know?

From having grown a single variety either organically or not. Not a really accurate observation b'c not grown at the same time in the same season for direct comparison.

But I've read lots and lots about growing tomatoes organically or not, the same variety, on the net and so far I haven't been happy with the reported data showing higher flavinoids, amino acids and all the claims made for organic growing, based on what I know about tomato physiology.

I'll wait until I see what I call good data.

But then we're left with the age old question, never to be solved, of taste having a genetic association re the taster and there's no way to get around that as I see it.

[Vince]

Plants can't distinguish and do not discriminate(because they are the same) against organic nutrients or some prepared in a factory(NH4+ is NH4+ just as K+ is K+ regardles of the source). The big difference is when you use organic methods the overall health(microbes, worms and what ever is going on in there) of you soil is better(particularly when considering long term effects). BTW I use organic and stuff from a factory, like Miricale grow.

[tomakers]

Originally Posted by Vince_chemist

Plants can't distinguish and do not discriminate(because they are the same) against organic nutrients or some prepared in a factory(NH4+ is NH4+ just as K+ is K+ regardles of the source). The big difference is when you use organic methods the overall health(microbes, worms and what ever is going on in there) of you soil is better(particularly when considering long term effects). BTW I use organic and stuff from a factory, like Miricale grow.

I agree completely. I am not against organic and I try to be as organic as possible, but experience has shown me that a compromise is the best solution. I do not use non-organic pesticides/fungicides, by the way.
JMO,
Tom

[scottfsmith]

Vince, NH4 is NH4 but its not NO3, urea, or an amino acid. The form of N in the fertilizer is well known to affect plant growth. Also the pH and associated buffering of the soil are very important and can change based on what is added. Then you have your soil fungi populations,earthworms and other biological activity, your trace nutrients, etc etc. Soil chemistry is incredibly complex stuff, so about all I can say for certain is how ignorant we are! I wouldn't even be surprised if some of this biodynamic stuff turned out to be scientifically valid (I think its nuts, but I'm sure not sure its nuts!). To get an idea of how complex it is, skim this scientific proceedings for starters: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agricultur...cture/workshop

Scott

[robin303]

I bought the seeds from SSE and grew four plants. Not one tomato. Pulled them all up today to grow collards. Bummer
I think it is to hot for them here.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by feldon30

I will just say that based on what I saw at Deer Park's place, the addition of organic matter vs. using chemical fertilizers has a clear effect on gardening success. His use of mountains of shredded leaves provides an explanation for how so many of his varieties in the SSE Yearbook have earned the coveted "excellent flavor" label. Even what I consider ordinary tomato varieties tasted fantastic.

Even the ubiquitous Sungold tastes worlds better. I was really surprised and added 15 lbs of leaf mold to my prime tomato bed just before planting my fall crop and intend to make it a habit.

As you know, I was similarly impressed with the taste of his tomatoes, and also plan to give amending with shredded leaves a go. After all, I've got to bring my raised beds back up to level with something periodically as OM subsidence is rather high in our hot climate. This fall, I figure I may as well use shredded leaves instead of my usual combo of "garden soil" and a little manure as I have more fall leaves than I know what to do with anyway...

I'd also add that (as you also know) I usually use wheat straw mulch in most of my beds. Well, there are a couple of beds I have been using shredded leaves in instead - the ones I grow my "other vegetables" in, like garlic and such. After just a couple of growing seasons, the difference in how the soil looks and feels in the shredded leaf ones is measurable - I've not had the soil tested.

Originally Posted by robin303

I bought the seeds from SSE and grew four plants. Not one tomato. Pulled them all up today to grow collards. Bummer
I think it is to hot for them here.

Brandywine almost always does just fine for me here (even in this hot drought year), but I do plant out on the early side for my area. It also did fine for me in Fort Worth. Some years are better than others, of course. Might be a variety you'll want to try again at some point in time.

[TZ-OH6]

Soil bacteria and fungi take up inorganic nutrients the same as plants do, so that Miracle Grow doesn't sit around in an inorganic state long, but organic gardening generally incorporates more organic matter into the soil, which provides carbon to feed-grow more microbes, which act as a long term nutrient bank. Without the carbon the microbes have no need for mineral nutrients and the fertilizer just washes away. If you want to see how well inorganic fertilizer feeds microbes just add some to a compost pile full of brown matter. It will be steaming hot in a couple of days. Mushrom farmers also add inorganic nutrients to their feeder compost (straw and wood chips etc)

[feldon30]

I planted large, well-established plants of Brandywine on March 16th and got over a dozen tomatoes. The same for 2 plants of Earl's Faux.

[feldon30]

I am not saying "Take the organic way or the highway". I don't tell people how to garden.

I am not completely organic so I'm not going to tell anyone else they have to be. I am simply suggesting that if shredded leaves, good compost, etc. are available to you, I'd consider them. I don't use Miracle-Gro because I want the best possible tasting tomatoes and I've just read too many negative comments about it. And maybe I am a bit of a food snob, but I just want awesome tomatoes. I use TomatoTone, cotton burr compost, sheep manure, shredded bark, wheat straw, and now shredded leaves.

I really cannot describe how superior the Sungolds and Black Cherries I picked at Michael Gunn's were compared to the ones that I and Suze grow. Incredibly sweet and rich. When you've eliminated all the other variables, it comes down to soil, and as you can see from the pictures, he uses mountains of shredded leaves.


Someone posted on another forum in response to someone who was having pest problems that "the problem is your soil is not good, improve the soil and the plants will be strong enough to fight off any pest or infection". I think that is over-the-top organic chest pounding. If you can track down some shredded leaves, pine bark, even shredded black and white newspaper, give them a try. It's certainly cheaper than buying bags of potting soil.

[Lilypon]

regarding the original post here I also believe that cool temperatures also have a HUGE effect on fruitset on Sudduth Brandywine. I've grown it for a couple of years and I've pulled many (well all to be exact) barren plant come fall ....in fact I've yet to taste it. This year I planted my tomatoes 11 days prior to last frost (May 21st to be exact), the temps were really cool til after the first or 2nd week of June, and not too long ago I finally got down and looked under her skirt, counted, and now I'm excited to say I've got 14 Sudduth Brandywine on it. 8) Picked my fist one a couple of days ago .....it needs a little more time to finish colouring up. Now I'm very excited to say I'll finally have my first taste!

[feldon30]

Congrats! I hope it delivers on taste.