Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[b54red]

Originally Posted by SpookyShoe

I see you grow tomatoes in central Arkansas. My in-laws live in El Dorado and it was there that I met a friend of my in-laws who was growing a tomato he called Indian Stripe. He had a fabulous garden and always saved his own seed. I sent some of the seed to Carolyn, and because of her, the this tomato is widespead now.

My father-in-law, who is 94, remembers the tomato Marglobe being grown in his parents' garden. He has also commented that the tomato Bradley was very popular in the area for family consumption and to sell at market.

Donna

Thank you for sending Indian Stripe to Carolyn and her for spreading it around. It is my must grow tomato every year and probably my most successful heirloom of the hundreds of varieties I have tried.

Bill

[GunnarSK]

I also think Indian Stripe as sold by Gleckler is the same as in Victory, ultimately from you and Carolyn. Thank you for that. I also have seeds. As long as that's clear, there's nothing wrong with having two names for closely related tomatoes, that may have the same origin.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by GunnarSK

I also think Indian Stripe as sold by Gleckler is the same as in Victory, ultimately from you and Carolyn. Thank you for that. I also have seeds. As long as that's clear, there's nothing wrong with having two names for closely related tomatoes, that may have the same origin.

Yes, the variety was called either Indian Stripe OR Indian Zebra, and if you going to comment on the fact that some believe that the original name was Indian Stripe b'c that's what some seeds in a freezer said, well, if it was called either, then what's labelled IZ is thesame as IS, so why some want to claim the original name was IZ, and that's what they're going to call it from seedslabelled IZ,that escapes me totally. One year save seeds and label them IS, a few years later, save seeds and label them IZ. Which is probably what Burson Sr.did.

No orginal name, for it was called both and you know the rest of the story in detail as does Donna, who posted in this thread as well

But let us NOT continue posting about this topic here in this thread, please, b'c it's been discussed to death, resurrected, discussed again, etc, since 2003 when I first listed IS in the SSE Yearbook and sent seeds to many seed places.

Carolyn

[PaddyMc]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

I find very unfortunate and sad, actually that this is being spun as jealousy. Someone sounds like they have a North Korea complex.

Steve's problem is with theft, I think that was outlined clearly. If you look back onto another forum which was an offshoot for only tomatoes; things have been said along similar lines, which effectively spelled the demise of said forum. There's so much swapping going on of crosses; it's easy for an individuals to swipe someone elses work. This is a good lesson for us all; don't swap unless you want your work possibly stolen. That, or in better business arrangements, get a reciprocal contract.

Good on Bill for being truthful about his crosses. My problem is I was deceived on purpose about something I was given. Again, this has been outlined clearly over time - which others also echoed similar sentiments. Now I won't grow it or sell because I might as well start selling "Sungolds" as "surf4grrls orange" or "Mortgage Lifter" as "Enormous red giant".

Not everyone is going to get along and like each other, but please let's at least start with being honest about we are actually growing, who we got it from, not re-naming stuff that isn't yours, not taking someone else work and claiming credit - I think you all get the point.

I appreciate crosses and breeding and will buy those seeds, but only from reputable sellers. This isn't the issue. It's about what I feel is deliberate deception and theft in order to race to the top of the very non-existent "king of all tomatoes" or some such asinine nonsense.

I'll buy that, IF something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by PaddyMc

I'll buy that, IF something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.

I think you have to go back to a couple of other threads but the stolen part I believe is in reference to pictures. Two different issues have been melded into one statement. I don't know if he was referring to his own photos or the practice that some vendors have of using any picture they can find on the Internet.

[surf4grrl]

Originally Posted by PaddyMc

I'll buy that, IF something actually was stolen. But I have yet to see Steve say what he thinks was stolen from him. Which is why I think it comes across to some people (including me) as jealousy. His argument would carry some weight if he would say exactly what he thinks was stolen. I say this as someone who likes Steve, ordered from him last year and this year, and said positive things on the various forums about those seeds. But I want some evidence.

PaddyMc, you are casting aspersions onto what Steve said with respect to stealing, when in fact you know little of the history but a one sided version of events. I think you are a late comer to this discussion and as someone relatively new the site where you "roost" (I think you joined the private "North Korea site" as I was leaving), with no knowledge of the entire history of this - I think you better do some fact checking with all sides before you give your opinion. I tried taking this up with the powers that be - we all did - and got little but shuck and jive responses.

I have nothing against you, but you are only relying on one-sided gossip.

I was there and I do know what happened with respect to my own story. & Steve is no way, shape, or form jealous - if you look at prior boards we were all on - you'd understand this.

Steve is one of the more-than-generous-guys I know and shame on you for suggesting otherwise. I mean really.

If you think Steve has been the only one ripped off (ie stolen from) I suggest you do some homework first - and talk to just a few of the offended parties rather than the offending ones.

But thanks for your 2 cents, I think.

[surf4grrl]

I think you have to go back to a couple of other threads but the stolen part I believe is in reference to pictures. Two different issues have been melded into one statement. I don't know if he was referring to his own photos or the practice that some vendors have of using any picture they can find on the Internet.

And this, I already offered proof with picture - those segregants show sweet Beverly and sweet sharon, in 2011 - the very first year I grew them out.

Tell me, PaddyMc - did we all have magical crosses that year?

I suggest you ask the Great OZ, where the last tomato board is, we were all on the tanked. Maybe he'll give you the link to show that history. Maybe not, is what I think.

What everyone was given and grew and shared was there. You can see for yourself. & you can see what was stolen - the H series etc.

In fact, if you look closely the Great Oz only started his first cross in 2010. Most of his sidekicks too. In fact, most of us but for 5 or 6, like Bill, Keith, Dar and the rest.

Print don't lie!

Now I have no truck with you, but we've explained ourselves plenty with proof.

[PaddyMc]

I still don't see what was stolen. Where is the "H" series on Mariannas? Where are any of them? I'm offended that you don't think that I can think for MYSELF, surf4grrl. The only version of events I have is Steve's here and at another forum, and the responses to that thread. I have no dog in this fight. The fact that I appreciate the opportunity to learn from as many of my fellow growers as possible, and therefore am a member of darn near every forum I can find is just that. You've been a member here 4 months longer than me. Maybe there's something important that I missed in those 4 months, but I've read a lot of back posts on this site, and the others which I think it's against the forum rules to name, and I haven't seen any evidence of theft, other than of pictures by Pepper Joe. I'm genuinely asking to be educated, and at the same time standing up for the principal that all people are innocent until proven guilty. Even on the internet, I think it's lame to say "YOU'RE GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!" and then when someone asks "Why?" to say, "BECAUSE THEY'RE GUILTY!" That's why this forum has a rule against personal attacks (which in my opinion has been violated multiple times in this thread, but that's a different subject). No one should be able to disparage other, good people without evidence. If Steve was wronged, he deserves justice. If he wasn't it was wrong of him to disparage someone else. I'm just saying that the reason some people read this as jealousy is that I've only seen vague references to theft instead of people saying "this specific variety was mine, and now it's being sold as X". Maybe since you have access to those old threads, you can take this opportunity to educate me and point out these thefts. I'm more than willing to have my mind changed on this, but I'd like some actual examples.
I have no truck with you either, but I refuse to simply except the idea that people who I have only seen to be good, are bad, just because someone else says so.

[PaddyMc]

If you feel this is a more appropriate conversation to have in PM, feel free to PM me.

[carolyn137]

I think it's time to step back and reflect as to where this thread is going right now.

This is not the time nor the place to discuss such personal issues involving specific persons. I could see some wanting to transfer threads from another place to here, and then that would cause yet more discussion and that's not the purpose of this thread if you go back to the first post made.

Paddy, thanks for suggesting that surfgirl could PM you, b/c that's the way I think this latest discussion should go.

Thanks to all in advance for your cooperation .

Carolyn

[PaddyMc]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I think it's time to step back and reflect as to where this thread is going right now.

This is not the time nor the place to discuss such personal issues involving specific persons. I could see some wanting to transfer threads from another place to here, and then that would cause yet more discussion and that's not the purpose of this thread if you go back to the first post made.

Paddy, thanks for suggesting that surfgirl could PM you, b/c that's the way I think this latest discussion should go.

Thanks to all in advance for your cooperation .

Carolyn

sounds good

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

I already offered proof with picture - those segregants show sweet Beverly and sweet sharon, in 2011 - the very first year I grew them out.
Print don't lie!

The most famous example of an "instable" = heterozygous tomato is Green Doctors, which was found by Amy Goldman on a "Dr Carolyn" plant.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The second event was when Amy Goldman found GWR fruits on a plant of the variety Dr. Carolyn, which is a whitish/pale yellow. I never asked her if it was one GWR on the plant, which would speak to a somatic mutation, or all fruits on that plant were GWRipes.

And the taste if both Dr. Carolyn is very good as was the taste of this GWR and she named it Green Doctors. I didn't understand what had happened so this time I asked someone who is an expert on tomato genetics and he came back with a very plausible detailed description of how that could have happened.

I think it was Carolyn herself who suggested, that this might be a cross rather than mutation, because a light-skinned ("clear" epidermis) variant (Green Doctors Frosted) appeared independently in three different people's growout. Now both GD and GDF are being sold by several vendors. At least Baker Creek tells honestly, that they don't sell pure Green Doctors seed, only a mix of GD and GDF. To sell "pure" = homozygous Green Doctors seed you'd have to do a growout of at least 11 plants (or more depending on required/desired confidence level) from each "mother" and bag blooms.

[surf4grrl]

Gunnar, that's all fine and good and I understand crosses.

However, using your assertion that this is a cross, why was one of the segregants which i had, which is obviously sweet sharon offered as a new variety? In fact, it was sold as a "mutation", remember? I sure do.

It would've been progeny of the cross, no? And would require stabilization - not be offered a few months after the cross was found. One of those segregants in my photo matches sweet sharon exactly.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by GunnarSK

The most famous example of an "instable" = heterozygous tomato is Green Doctors, which was found by Amy Goldman on a "Dr Carolyn" plant.

I think it was Carolyn herself who suggested, that this might be a cross rather than mutation, because a light-skinned ("clear" epidermis) variant (Green Doctors Frosted) appeared independently in three different people's growout. Now both GD and GDF are being sold by several vendors. At least Baker Creek tells honestly, that they don't sell pure Green Doctors seed, only a mix of GD and GDF. To sell "pure" = homozygous Green Doctors seed you'd have to do a growout of at least 11 plants (or more depending on required/desired confidence level) from each "mother" and bag blooms.

Gunnar, I'll try to clarify.

At the time I'd never heard of a so called white/ivory fruit, in this case Dr. Carolyn, going to a green when ripe, so I asked Keith Mueller about it and he came back and explained how it could happen, and I'm sure I still have that PM somewhere since I'm bad and tend not to delete them.

And that white to green or green to white was then confirmed for me when I was growing three plants of Cherokee Green for seed production and one plant had all white fruits, which were lousy tasting.

When I first grew GD is was very stable, but then Neil in IL and Jeff in Canada, and later I found out the same had happened for I think it was either Lee Goodwin, here at TV or Steve of Heirtage seeds who got plants with fruits that had a clear epidermis, and it was decided between Jeff and Neil and myself to call it GDF.

It was the first time that I'd grown a GWRipe with a clear epi since I trialed a variety for Tom Wagner back in the mid-90's, along with about 20 others, and the variety name is Verde Claro, and I love it.

No, I never suggested a cross that led to GDF, what I've always thought is that the epidermis gene was unstable and was flipping back and forth, and I still think that today.

Subsequently I've seen that many folks have grown GD and got both GD and GDFplants, and the reverse is also true.

Since both taste the same I don't have a problem with it at all and I don't see why anyone else would.

It's kind of a twofer situation if you will.

On my list of growouts for this season there's one GWRipe variety that's a beefsteak and I was delighted to be given those seeds since it sounds as though it has a clear epidermis and I'm also expecting another GWR from across the pond but I have no idea if that one has a yellow or clear epidermis.

I've grown lots of GWripes, I love them and just wanted to share some info about Green Giant. Those in the south who grew it usually got no amber blush at all, suggesting the epi was clear, not the normal yellow epi that most GWripes have. So Craig, seeing no amber blush in Raleigh, sent seeds of it to his friend in MI and to me, and we got the normal amber blush. I asked Reinhard Kraft about it , he was the original source, and he said that he grew his tomatoes in a greenhouse where it was quite warm.

So it would appear that there was a temperature induced phenotype change that was at work due to gene expession.

So no, I didn't suggest a cross, ever. It's really no different with variety Green Grape, which as released by Tom Wagner was indeterminate, but it kind of morphed into a determinate and Tom saw that himself when he first visited a greenhouse overseas where plants were being grown.

I also had a variety, I can't remember the name now, I'm sure Craig can, where you could save seeds from plants with PL foliage, sow them the next time and get plants , some with PL and some with RL.

Same thing happened with the variety Dr. Carolyn Pink, seeds sent to me by an SSE member. Sow seeds of Dr. Carolyn Pink and get large cherries, save seeds for it and get plants that have either large pink cherries, or small ones that are the size of the variety Dr. Carolyn and there's a couple of threads about that here at TV .

Same with the variety Kazachka seeds from Andrey in Belarus, where you can get some black cherries that are round on one plant and another plant will have what I call minibeefsteaks. When I asked Andrey about it he said he got the same results.

My point concerning the examples I've just written about?

Having flip flop of a given gene one can get different phenotypes and the genes involved have been quite varied, from fruit shape to leaf form to plant habit and also epidermis color and environmental variables such as temperature can also change the expression of genes as well.

I hope that helps.

Carolyn, who forgot one issue. Gunnar it isn't a matter of pure homozygous genes as I see it since there are even environmental variables that can alter phenotypes, such as temperature, as I mentioned above. I have no problem at all with Baker Creek saying you get both GD and GDF from seed puchased from them, but I don't think any number of generations is going to lead to an homozygous anything. Same as with the Dr. Carolyn Pink fruit size flip flopping and also the Kazachka fruit form flip flopping, to geve just two examples.

[nadine18]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

It would've been progeny of the cross, no? And would require stabilization - not be offered a few months after the cross was found. One of those segregants in my photo matches sweet sharon exactly.

This is what I'm wondering about. There are so many different stories about Sweet Sharon, I'm sitting here looking at all the different posts and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. Maybe someone can help me make sense of all this?

Is Sweet Sharon a mutation like Marianna's Seed website says?
swtsharon.jpeg

Or is a cross that he is trying to stabilize?
swtsharon3.jpg

I think it's interesting that in your post about the shapes of Sweet Beverley he seems to imply that he has never seen a white version of Sweet Beverley.
swtsharon1.jpg

That was in 2011. Then in 2013, the same post, he says, "No, I have had them a long time before that thread, I just wanted more stability"
swtsharon2.jpg

March of 2012, Sweet Sharon was an f6 and very stable.
swtsharon5.jpg

But in April of 2012 Sweet Sharon it was only an f5 and just quite stable.
swtsharon4.jpg


Can a tomato become less stable over time?
Maybe that's how all these "sister" lines are magically created!