Discussion forum for environmentally-friendly alternatives to replace synthetic chemicals and fertilizers.
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November 5, 2009 | #61 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,618
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Let me first admit that I have done zero reading on this topic. I apologize if my view is totally irrelevant.
I have a fundamental problem with the concept of introducing a foreign organism that is not native in your particular area; even it may be seemingly beneficial. The end result can be very drastic, as history has taught us many terrible lessons many times. dcarch
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tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato Last edited by dcarch; November 5, 2009 at 08:42 PM. |
November 5, 2009 | #62 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: eastern washington
Posts: 53
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these recipes for LB, EM/BIM are all concocted in a way to absorb beneficial organisms from the environment within one's own area.
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November 5, 2009 | #63 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 692
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Quote:
LB, BIM, IM is a self help process and doesn't require any bought starter. I too have reservations of introducing foreign bacteria into my local system, which is why I am interested in using local stuff. (LB, Bim or IM) not EM. |
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November 5, 2009 | #64 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: eastern washington
Posts: 53
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Quote:
the recipe given for EM does not require a starter in Cal G's booklet. i have seen recipes that do require the starter. to me it is more fruitful to make my own as it will gather microbes condusive to my area.
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November 5, 2009 | #65 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Logan, UT
Posts: 207
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November 5, 2009 | #66 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: eastern washington
Posts: 53
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there is a pdf file i do not have a link for, but one can copy and paste the title here and put it in the browser to look up...
Quote:
here's a link to a booklet with recipes for EM... http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa...ation%2Fmsword
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much sunshine, bunkie. |
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November 5, 2009 | #67 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,618
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I am not that smart in science. I apologize if this sounds illogical.
According the law of conservation of energy, “The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy (matter) in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy (matter) cannot be created or destroyed. ...” In a given quantity of soil, there is a given amount of nutrients. Unless the microorganisms can add extra nutrients (K, N, P and trace elements) to the soil (not counting nitrogen fixing microbes) it will not increase the soil’s nutrient quantities. Althought they may or may not increase the rate of nutrient depletion by the plants, they certainly cannot improve the soil's quality in terms of nutreints. Therefore I have a hard time understand the following: “---------------in ways that can improve soil quality, enhance crop production and protection, conserve natural resources, and ultimately create a more sustainable agriculture and environment------------------“ dcarch
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tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato Last edited by dcarch; November 5, 2009 at 10:51 PM. |
November 6, 2009 | #68 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Logan, UT
Posts: 207
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November 6, 2009 | #69 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 692
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Quote:
The idea of adding any BIM/IM to soil is to provide added bacteria/microbes which start to transform OM to the nutrients necessary for plants to flourish. |
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November 6, 2009 | #70 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 692
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Quote:
I think if you check the dates Cal G was using the term EM before EMamerica took over the term with the patent. For safety's sake and better clarity it would be better to refer to BIM/IM and ignore EM, unless you want to waste your money buying EM. By the way, the link you provided didn't work for me, all I got was gobledegook! |
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November 6, 2009 | #71 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E
Posts: 5,041
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Add is a bad word. They (the microorganisms) make nutrients available by either setting up symbiotic relationship with the plant and rhizophere or by making nutrients available that are otherwise locked in the soil and unavailable to the plants whether a symbiotic relationship exists or not.
Nutrients have to be given to the soil whether they be organic or inorganic. You have no till methods that are meant not to disturb the microorganisms in the soil and allow them to proliferate and those that till the soil to add organic matter and nutrients while increasing aeration of. In this case the addition of beneficial microorganisms or mycorrhizae will be of great benefit as the tilling has depleted the microbial herd and more is needed to develop that symbiotic relatioship between the roots and the rhizophere and make available the nutrients to the plants. Ami
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November 6, 2009 | #72 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 692
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I need some clarification, please. Why is add a bad word? This precisely what we're doing.
We are building up bacteria/microbes to 'add' them to the soil, to compensate for a possible shortage. It's not only tilling which depletes the herd, adding chemicals, acid rain, pollution, pesticides and fungicides, so we need to add extra to replace what is missing or has been killed off, at the same time as we're adding compost or soil amendments. Last edited by beeman; November 6, 2009 at 10:27 AM. Reason: addition |
November 6, 2009 | #73 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany 49°26"N 07°36"E
Posts: 5,041
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[QUOTE]In a given quantity of soil, there is a given amount of nutrients. Unless the microorganisms can add extra nutrients (K, N, P and trace elements) to the soil (not counting nitrogen fixing microbes) it will not increase the soil’s nutrient quantities. /QUOTE]
"Add is a bad word" was in response to the above statement by dcarch. The microorganisms do not add to the NPK level of the soil but can make more nutrients available to the plants as I went on to explain. Ami
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Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘...Holy Crap .....What a ride!' |
November 6, 2009 | #74 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 2,618
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I know, I should do a little more reading up on this topic to participate this discussion and I have not. I am indeed sorry if I make some uneducated comments.
What I don’t understand:
dcarch ???
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tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato |
November 7, 2009 | #75 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: PNW
Posts: 4,743
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Quote:
population of that 1/2 tsp of solids is very high, compared to the microorganisms in the compost used to make it. The molasses or other sugars, kelp, etc added when brewing compost tea allow for a microbial population explosion. (If you let it sit too long after the extra microbe food is used up, the population dies back to what it was in the compost.) You pour this around your rootball, and the rate of breakdown of both organic and mineral nutrients in the soil is temporarily accelerated, until the population settles to what the soil itself naturally supports. When I did this, my plants put on a nice growth spurt. The nutrition was there in slow release form, the compost tea increased the rate of nutrient release. (In a short summer, this matters.) No-till is more about not breaking up soil aggregates (larger structures formed mainly by fungi that improve aeration and drainage) and reducing erosion (plus maybe some saved cost in fuel, but you do have to knock down the winter cover crop in spring, so the energy cost differential compared to tilling is not much).
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