Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.
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October 20, 2015 | #1 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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Blue DANGER for the tomatoes.
This is the continuation of a post placed in another place but which is never taken back in the list of the answers given to a comment.
http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=38552 I thus place the continuation in another place because I judge that this phenomenon has to be known of all the lovers of tomatoes. Blue DANGER for the dwarf. PART 1 1) After the adventure of " pineapple blue ". In 2010, I sowed several seeds of my OSU 01 to OSU99 and I tried some crossings with other varieties. Next years, I noticed that some crossings had succeeded. I would show later what I obtained thanks to several testers which helped me. From 2012, I did not realize any more crossings because I noticed that I had so many crossings realized by insects and bumblebees as those whom I tried to realize myself. In 2013, I decided to install almost everywhere among my plants of blue tomatoes of the dwarf plants in jars and to see if I had fortuitous hybridizations. 2) Dwarf in 2013 Here are the varieties which I growed: Robin Hood and Tiny Tim. 2) Dwarf in 2014 Here are the varieties which I growed: Reinhards ' Goldkirsche, pink Olive and Idaho. I obtained certain results in 2014 and 2015 for Robin Hood and the varieties photos of which you see. Attachment 53888 Attachment 53889 Attachment 53890 Attachment 53891 Attachment 53892 Attachment 53893 b) Filaris 44 dwarf FilarisF2.jpg 45 dwarf FilarisF1.jpg 3 different characters are present on F2 with regard to compared with F1 A) Leaves are different B) Tomatoes are 7 times as big C) The color of certain tomatoes are red and blue. Remarks: 1) The blue color upset the relationship) of the characters of dominance. 2) There are 3 visible characters but how many characters are crossed here in fact. Blue appears almost everywhere!!! 3) Imagine the number of possibilities of crossings of 6 characters. 4) In 2015, I obtained identical plants in 3708AB 32inch in height. 5) And a plant of 100 inch high. 46 dwarf TomRed.jpg 47 dwarf Tom Red.jpg 48 dwarf Tom Red 2.jpg 49 dwarf Tom Red 3.jpg Last edited by Ambiorix; October 20, 2015 at 05:03 AM. |
October 20, 2015 | #2 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2013
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 2,052
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I'm sorry, but your expression of English is difficult for me to follow. My understanding of what you are saying is that you made crosses with the OSU varieties in prior years, but now you are getting blue traits in varieties you did NOT cross, and further, your non-blue plants are being "mutated" in other ways which you attribute to the blue invasion. Is this close to what you mean to say?
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October 20, 2015 | #3 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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French is my mother language.
But you understood everything. I have many examples to be shown. |
October 20, 2015 | #4 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Sunol, CA
Posts: 2,723
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Higher than expected cross pollination seems to be a reasonable explanation for what you see. And there might be factors that enhance the cross pollination of Blues (more pollen, better pollen viability, increased insect visits to "blue" varieties...).
The likelihood that the non-blue varieties are "mutated", however, does not make sense to me. As a biologist, I cannot think of a mechanism that would explain a non-blue to blue mutation. You aren't suggesting this, are you? |
October 20, 2015 | #5 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2013
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 2,052
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It would seem to me that crossing any varieties would result in changes throughout a plant's structure and fruit with the introduction of various different genes resulting from the cross, regardless of whether the cross involved a blue variety. For the past 3 years I have been growing dozens and dozens of varieties together, including blue ones, and I have seen no blue seepage into others. I've seen very little crossing at all from any varieties. Perhaps I don't have the number of insect pollinators causing crosses as others do, although I have bumblebees at work constantly in my tomato patches. I will pay more attention in the future.
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October 21, 2015 | #6 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 586
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Something that should be considered is that many other strains show low levels of anthocyanin production, without any potential of crossing to OSU (or other "blue" strains). Sepal and leaf coloration is common. In particular, sepal coloration is present in var "Tiny Tim" and appears to be derived from the Solanum pimpinellifolium parent. The genes that result in the blue color of the OSU and derived strains have homologs in basically every other wild species which modern tomatoes were bred from. These genes can assort into combinations that result in enhanced anthocyanin production (http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot....ue-tomato.html) without any potential crossing by OSU or related strains.
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http://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.com Last edited by Darren Abbey; October 21, 2015 at 02:18 AM. |
October 21, 2015 | #7 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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All my tries with Robin Hood were compared always every year with several plants of Tiny Tim. I have never noticed any blue indication on all my Tiny Tim (no blue sepals,no blue on the skin , no blue nowhere).
I consider moreover that Tiny Tim is a variety who résist to the pollen of blue tomatoes . |
October 21, 2015 | #8 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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d) Shadow Boxing
A) an unstable variety. This variety created by Tom Wagner is really unstable for several reasons: 1 °) Certain plants give rather different tomatoes since the first cluster up to the last one. 2 °) Certain indefinite plants are very big (> 100 inch) or less big (60 inch). 3 °) other plants are determined and do not exceed 40 inch. 4 °) There are even dwarf plants. It is the reason why, I like studying this kind of instability. B) Indefinite Shadow boxing #5 A Japanese ( Scope Seeds) worked well enough on this variety. I thus got myself seeds. I harvested the seeds of a plant and in 2015, one of my testers followed 5 plants resulting from these seeds. 3001SS gave seeds 4856AB. 4856AB gave 5016BW 51 shadow boxing BW.jpg 52 dwarf shadow boxing 2.jpg " |
October 21, 2015 | #9 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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53 dwarf shadow boxing where.jpg
54 dwarf shadow boxing GB35.jpg 55 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 feui.jpg 56 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 fleurs.jpg 57 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 no mat.jpg 58 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 mat.jpg 59 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 dec.jpg 60 no dwarf shadow boxing GB35 compar.jpg 61 no DSB GB27 Leaves.jpg 62 no DSB GB27 Flower.jpg 63 no DSB GB27 feuil.jpg 64 DSB GB27 Haut.jpg 65 DSB GB27 no mature.jpg 66 DSB GB27 mature.jpg The good photo is lower 68 DSB GB27 exp.jpg Last edited by Ambiorix; October 21, 2015 at 09:37 AM. |
October 21, 2015 | #10 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Embourg(Belgium)
Posts: 134
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November 1, 2015 | #11 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 2,984
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Ambiorix, while I agree with you to some extent that the anthcyanin types first used to create the glut of new "blue" tomatoes seem to have been highly attractive to bees, or otherwise seemed to have "special powers" of cross contamination, do you not think also that some of the dramatic variations you are seeing in your tomato population may be caused by the wildly unstable stage in the germplasm of a couple of the anthocyanin lines with which you began(Shadow Boxing, and other Wagner F2s and F3s)
That being asked, I still agree that the anthocyanin plants that first became available to several of the hobby and professional breeders (OSU Blue and P20) appear to have been highly attractive or highly susceptible to bees or bee-carried cross pollination. The first and only time I grew OSU Blue, I saved seeds that resulted in the so-called OSU Large, which obviously was a cross between OSU Blue x a purple beefsteak in my garden (most likely Indian Stripe, as that was the purple type with the most plants present in that year's garden). In another case, I grew what was supposed to be a pink cherry something from a Rose Quartz cross with another pink tomato from Keith Mueller, and got a ping pong size, red cocktail tomato with blue shoulders ... obviously contaminated by something Keith was working on from P20 crosses. That was enough for me to stop growing anthocyanin types, as while I do experience accidental outcrosses, I do not experience them at the same apparent high rate as I did with the antho types. Same comment on the variegated foliage types ... they too have been barred from the garden. Last edited by travis; November 1, 2015 at 10:25 AM. |
November 2, 2015 | #12 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Oregon
Posts: 176
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This year I had Blue Beauty in my garden and late in the season I could see antho "contamination" almost on all of my tomato varieties, especially on yellow/orange ones. Did not see any bees this year, but it was windy. Chuchloma and some yellow from commercial pack
Last edited by Allisa; November 2, 2015 at 02:30 PM. |
November 2, 2015 | #13 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Oregon
Posts: 176
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Should be Mr Stripey tomato
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November 2, 2015 | #14 | ||
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
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Quote:
You have convinced me to not have these things in my garden. I hope I'm not considered the so called peanut gallery that was mentioned in the other thread. Quote:
Are you saying that these plants produced this from commercial seeds not ones you saved? Worth |
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November 2, 2015 | #15 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Good question Worth and I'll ask another one.
If Blue Beauty was in your garden this year, as you said, then any cross pollination would only be seen from saved F2 seeds and subsequent plant out, not from fruits that developed in the same year. Carolyn
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Carolyn |
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