Soil building for nutrient density

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by nnjjohn

anybody know what might be a good crop to start from seed or buy to plant this late in the season for some spare room to plant in a few of my beds? Thinking of trying swisschard but never grew them before..they okay next to cucumbers or tomatoes or both? tia, john

I succession plant bush beans so I have a continuouse supply of them. I will plant pole beans mid july so I have a large supply to freeze early Fall. I leave an open space for carrotts and broccoli to be planted mid July. I'm not sure about the swiss chard. I usually plant early spring and late summer. Regarding planting near the cukes and tomatoes. The cukes will try to climb on anything and the tomatoes might cast too much shade for good growth. Also the cukes and tomatoes are pretty heavy feeders so i think you will need a pretty rich soil to sucessfully grow them in close proximity.

[nnjjohn]

Okay..gotcha..I already see how the cuc attaches around the cage or stems of mato plants. Think I'll try the chard. Maybe try melon or squash with the cucs ..they probably will get along.. this bed never did very well for matoe due to too much shade and less the prefered daily sun hrs.. I have big boys a few rutgers and cherries and super beefs in sunnier beds abot 40 total .. so I guess I could experiment with this bed ty all the same..john

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by nnjjohn

Okay..gotcha..I already see how the cuc attaches around the cage or stems of mato plants. Think I'll try the chard. Maybe try melon or squash with the cucs ..they probably will get along.. this bed never did very well for matoe due to too much shade and less the prefered daily sun hrs.. I have big boys a few rutgers and cherries and super beefs in sunnier beds abot 40 total .. so I guess I could experiment with this bed ty all the same..john

Nothing wrong with chard. I love it. Just too hot right now in OK to start it. (hit 100 today) I'll probably add some later for fall when it cools off a bit. Your climate might be fine right now?

[dice]

On heavy clay, I would start with about 18 inches of softwood
bark or wood chips and add high nitrogen materials as necessary
to keep the plants happy during the first growing season. Then
adding 6 inches of faster composting, more nutritious materials
each fall on top would probably work fine.

The research below suggests that many crops produce a dense
network of fine feeder roots near the surface, so the 6 inches
of compostable material on top in fall may work better than
I expect, even on heavy clay soils, with the caveat that they
are mulched each summer with a foot or more of mowed
cover crop or similar to keep soil temperatures at the surface
down ("GM/cc" in this document seems to mean "green manure/cover crop"):
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory20.html
(I do not know how many of the links from that document
still work, but one could web search for the names of projects
and organizations mentioned therein to find reorganized
document collections, etc.)

(Follow up on specific green manure crops for tropical climates
from the same author: http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory29.html
)

If one's "mowed winter cover crop" does not add up to a foot of
summer cover, one could add more traditional compostable
materials found in more temperate climates to make up the
difference (leaves, grass clippings, wheat straw, etc). Down
south, the shredded kudzu mulch was an interesting idea,
because the supply is virtually unlimited. Might want to experiment
on a small area first to be sure it can't sprout from a tiny piece
of shredded kudzu.

[nnjjohn]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I am still planting green beans. In a month or so I'll start planting fall crops like various cool weather brassicas. After that is garlic and walking onions which will overwinter. Once the heat breaks there are snap peas, spinach, radish etc... Even sweet corn can be planted this late if you choose an early type. There are lots of things. My climate is a bit different than yours though.

Yes , I would like to grow right into the coldest season here in nnj ..we been having weird winters (less snowfall and warmer winters) That is why I want to try swiss chard and other varieties..hoping this will help absorb and condition my beds that are too high in PH too. I do not think the tomatoes like this shaded side of the house even though it gets about 6 hrs sun maybe i will start early trying something else in this bed.

[dice]

Seed Ambassadors has this winter garden chart for the
Willamette Valley in central Oregon. It would be a little warmer
in winter there than New England is, but you still might find
some of their recommendations useful (and, especially, when
to plant different kinds of fall and winter crops; .pdf file,
so you probably need a computer rather than a phone
to read this list):
http://seedambassadors.org/wp-conten...en-Chart-4.pdf

[ScottinAtlanta]

Referring back to my post about building compost directly on the garden soil rather than in a compost pile, here is an interesting story about that technique. His compost layer is only 6 inches deep, which others on here think is too little. Thoughts?

""How To Grow World Record Tomatoes" is a book written by Charles Wilber. He describes how to make Kudzu compost, grow cover crops, and other good gardening practices. He grew 20 ft tall Better Boy tomato plants, 15 ft tall Silver Queen corn, huge radishes, Peaches the size of grapefruits, and lots of other stuff with that compost. The Mother Earth News magazine wrote a few articles about him about 25 years ago. His compost recipe, which includes colloidal clay, is included in the book:

3 inches of "hay", coursely ground (mixture of dried Kudzu and Sudex)
2 inches of cow manure or 1 inch of chicken manure
Quarter-inch of garden soil
Hardwood ashes or granite dust (light sprinkling)
Colloidal clay (light sprinkling)

NEVER let it get rained on!! Keep it covered with a tarp. Heavy rains will leach all the nutrients out of the compost."

And here is another one that I like in theory:

The Interbay Mulch is the use of a layer of burlap placed over the top of various organic material that you pile up on top of soil. Organic matter decomposes
much faster on top of the soil than it does if tilled in as long as it is covered and kept moist and dark. The byproducts of this process enrich and feed the
soil under it in some very interesting ways. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/c.../message/11957

I like the burlap idea.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by COMPOSTER

Master Gardener,

What are you foliar feeding with? Why are you doing to develop the soil food web? What kind of garden are you attempting to improve the soil in? Converted lawn, raised bed, containers? I really enjoy snow peas right off the vine. Waiting for mine to develop right now. Hopefully the gradual improvements I'm making in my soil grow better tasting snow pea too.

Glenn

I have more info and pictures in Red Barron's project thread. I did a soil test and added 1/2 of the amendments with the balance to be added this fall. I do not till so everything goes on top. Last fall I added a 24 inch layer of shredded leaves over decomposing straw mulch, now about 1 inch deep across everything. My earthworms are everywhere and in big numbers. I Foliar feed with Calcium and Kelp. I use AACT and compost. I have a 400 sq. ft. raised bed, 600 sq. ft. of converted hard clay lawn. 400 sq. ft. of the previous was never tilled and is currently planted in inoculated legumes as a compost crop. When the legumes are finished, I'll plant inoculated alfalfa and let it over winter. It's a new bed for this year. I covered the grass with cardboard, 3" compost and 3" wood chips and inoculated with AACT. I also supplement with Comfrey and Nettles and I raise red wigglers mostly for making vc for AACT. I want most of my worms working 24 x 7 where they are needed most.

The new bed is slow to come on-line, but that was expected. I was surprised to see so many worms in the new bed so soon.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by COMPOSTER

... I don't know why, but I am very sceptical of sending my soil out for testing. The older I get the more difficult time I have accepting analysis and advice of the so called experts.

If I were to go the soil testing route, what kind of institution would you suggest?

Glenn

Good point. Most soil tests do not include the advice you want, in fact, some labs will allow you to skip recommendations entirely. I set my soil test to a local lab. The analysis is 'OK' but the recommended advice was to use NPK in the form of chemical fertilizers and a bit of S and Fe. Just skip the advice part.

I believe the issues with soil testing are when and how to sample, and also what to do with the results when you get them. Initially, I thought the hard part of soil testing was to actually take and submit the samples. Wrong! It is interpreting the results and then re-mediating your soil in a manor consistent with your cultural practices.

Fast forward to your soil test results. You have x amounts of various minerals, now what do you do? At a minimum, I would suggest reading The Intelligent Gardener before you do anything. Working backwards from the lab results will help you even select a lab.

If you have never done a soil test, your results may surprise you.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

Referring back to my post about building compost directly on the garden soil rather than in a compost pile, here is an interesting story about that technique. His compost layer is only 6 inches deep, which others on here think is too little. Thoughts?

""How To Grow World Record Tomatoes" is a book written by Charles Wilber. He describes how to make Kudzu compost, grow cover crops, and other good gardening practices. He grew 20 ft tall Better Boy tomato plants, 15 ft tall Silver Queen corn, huge radishes, Peaches the size of grapefruits, and lots of other stuff with that compost. The Mother Earth News magazine wrote a few articles about him about 25 years ago. His compost recipe, which includes colloidal clay, is included in the book:

3 inches of "hay", coursely ground (mixture of dried Kudzu and Sudex)
2 inches of cow manure or 1 inch of chicken manure
Quarter-inch of garden soil
Hardwood ashes or granite dust (light sprinkling)
Colloidal clay (light sprinkling)

NEVER let it get rained on!! Keep it covered with a tarp. Heavy rains will leach all the nutrients out of the compost."

And here is another one that I like in theory:

The Interbay Mulch is the use of a layer of burlap placed over the top of various organic material that you pile up on top of soil. Organic matter decomposes
much faster on top of the soil than it does if tilled in as long as it is covered and kept moist and dark. The byproducts of this process enrich and feed the
soil under it in some very interesting ways. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/c.../message/11957

I like the burlap idea.

"Referring back to my post about building compost directly on the garden soil rather than in a compost pile, here is an interesting story about that technique. His compost layer is only 6 inches deep, which others on here think is too little. Thoughts?"

6 inches of compost is great, but remember it can take several feet of material to get 6 inches of compost. Depending on the material and the bioactivity of the soil, you might not have anything left by the time it comes to plant, if you start with only 6 inches. Some fluffy materials like grass clippings I can pile over my head and have them less than 6 inches in a few weeks. They last a bit longer as a mulch. But you get the idea.

The guy you quoted saying never let the rain hit it. "NEVER let it get rained on!! Keep it covered with a tarp. Heavy rains will leach all the nutrients out of the compost" That's one way. Personally I like the idea of enriching my soil. Leaching some of the nutrients to feed the soil biology is the whole point in my opinion. It's the way your bad soil becomes great soil, the mixing of the compost with the soil. Of course it makes the process take longer, but in the end I believe it is worth it.

I tried burlap for the first time this year. Good stuff. I was impressed. But not so good as a weed barrier.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by peppero

has anyone used granite dust with any detectable results?

jon

It takes time for most minerals to become fully incorporated into your soil. It can be up to three years for your amendments to come into balance. That said, it's unlikely for you to see a much of a difference in a few months. You might be able to measure a small difference using a refractometer if you had taken readings in the past for comparison and grow the same variety.

As to detectable results, the issues would be; is the soil deficient in the amendment(s) added, and if so, has there been time for the amendment to assimilate? Biology (and water) is necessary for dust to work.

The issue with the time lag is very important if you test often. There is a possibility of over-shoot if you test before the amendments can be assimilated, which may cause you to over apply them.

Fully balanced and amended soil would not show any positive difference with rock dust of any flavor.

One assumption to avoid is that if I add x to my soil and say it makes a difference (and it may), that you can add the exact same amendment and get the same results. The possible exception might be containers with a soil-less medium. Consider all the variables at work here, %OM, CEC, pH, soil structure and parent material, existing nutrient levels, crops grown, cultural practices, etc.

If it sounds complicated, well, it is until you understand what going on. My recommendation would be to do a soil test this fall after reading up a bit more on soil testing. Do the reading part first. You will be glad you did. A trip to the library is not expensive.

Consider this: You probably added compost at some time. Did you see a detectable improvement? Compost is incorporated much faster in your soil than dust. Everyone seems to agree that adding compost is good thing.

Russel

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

OK, here is a question. Most people use compost piles as I do, but I have been reading about layering compost ingredients about 6 inches thick on top of the garden soil, covering with a tarp, and letting it compost right on top of the ground.

Views on that approach? It obviously would be done in fall as garden areas are cleared of plants.

What is the purpose of using a tarp? Seems like it would withhold water from the soil and slow down decomposition. Nature does not use tarps.

Russel

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by ScottinAtlanta

Referring back to my post about building compost directly on the garden soil rather than in a compost pile, here is an interesting story about that technique. His compost layer is only 6 inches deep, which others on here think is too little. Thoughts?

""How To Grow World Record Tomatoes" is a book written by Charles Wilber. He describes how to make Kudzu compost, grow cover crops, and other good gardening practices. He grew 20 ft tall Better Boy tomato plants, 15 ft tall Silver Queen corn, huge radishes, Peaches the size of grapefruits, and lots of other stuff with that compost. The Mother Earth News magazine wrote a few articles about him about 25 years ago. His compost recipe, which includes colloidal clay, is included in the book:

3 inches of "hay", coursely ground (mixture of dried Kudzu and Sudex)
2 inches of cow manure or 1 inch of chicken manure
Quarter-inch of garden soil
Hardwood ashes or granite dust (light sprinkling)
Colloidal clay (light sprinkling)

NEVER let it get rained on!! Keep it covered with a tarp. Heavy rains will leach all the nutrients out of the compost."

And here is another one that I like in theory:

The Interbay Mulch is the use of a layer of burlap placed over the top of various organic material that you pile up on top of soil. Organic matter decomposes
much faster on top of the soil than it does if tilled in as long as it is covered and kept moist and dark. The byproducts of this process enrich and feed the
soil under it in some very interesting ways. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/c.../message/11957

I like the burlap idea.

I believe this is how he makes each layer to ultimately equal about a 2-3 cubic yd pile.

Glenn

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Master_Gardener

What is the purpose of using a tarp? Seems like it would withhold water from the soil and slow down decomposition. Nature does not use tarps.

Russel

The tarp might be reccomended to prevent the materials from becoming so saturated with water that they become anorobic and also from preventing the nutrients leaching out of the materials before they compost.

[dice]

Up here in the maritime Pacific Northwest, we have a lot of winter
rain. Nutrients that are mobile in the soil, like nitrogen, potassium,
and, to a lesser extent, calcium (probably others that I have not
researched, too), can leach down below the root zone.

But we also have verticillium in places, and compostable materials
like manures, leaf molds, grass clippings, wood chips, shredded
arborist debris, and so on are often best allowed to leach nutrients
into the soil over the winter to feed competing organisms. Depends
on whether your topsoil is sitting on sandy soils (river valleys, fast
nutrient leaching) or clay subsoil (higher elevations, where nutrients
leach through the subsoil more slowly and the topsoil layer is thinner)
which way is best for a particular garden or field.

In places with tropical rainfall (hard rains of whatever
duration that drop a lot of precipitation in a short time),
leaching of nutrients below the typical root zone of crops
is perhaps even more of a problem than it is up here,
and maybe that can happen with any kind of subsoil
under the topsoil. In the Amazon and other tropical
rainforests, when they clear cut land for timber, the soil
can become a "wet desert", where the nutrients in
the top layer of soil are leached out very quickly.
Without prompt planting of new trees, such land can take
a century to recover on its own from the logging operation,
because annual rainfall washes away nutrients faster
than casual accumulations of organic matter from weeds
and undergrowth can restore it.

Hence the tarp, perhaps.