Heart Shaped Omar's Lebanese!

[My Foot Smells]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Thanks Foot Smells!! I'm partial to "Dotson's Lebanese Heart". It is not far away from the Omar's Lebanese parent name and my Mom (bless her soul) would be thrilled to have a family name on a tomato.

Darin

Oorah!! Love it!!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by My Foot Smells

interesting. so you bought a pack of seeds, one plant comes out katy-wampus, heart shaped fruit, and then boom - a new variety is established.

by growing this out one season, and the fruit maintains heart form; it is now considered a new heirloom variety?

pretty cool, and congrats spartanburg123, will be interested to hear what you name the thing. Maybe Labenese Heart (Spartanburg's Folly). Got to put your name on it somewhere for the legacy.

No,it's not a new variety,there's another thread here somewhere,I think it's the Cuostralee Omar thread,where Darin said he was going to name it,I'll try to find that thread and link to it here eventually

I pointed out that it's a heart version of an already existing variety and then linked to Orange Minsk Heart and Cherokee Purple Heart and said that when a heart version appears,others have just added the word heart to the name.

Dutch agreed with me and also noted that Darin would be credited with being the founder,if you will.

I've typed a lot here now,so let me post it and go find that other thread which should make it abundantly clear that this is NOT a new variety.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Well that was easy, and several of you here already knew about this other thread and posted,yet posted differently in this thread and I'm not sure why.

Start at post #27

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=42668

Thanks,

Carolyn

[Spartanburg123]

Interesting. Is Girl Girl's Weird Thing not a new variety? It is clearly a mutation of Green Zebra that showed up in a row of Green Zebra plants. Why wasn't it named "Green Zebra Red Striped" or something? Because the lady who discovered it decided to name it after her late dog, who adored it. And it is a tomato that will be in my garden every year. I don't recall any pushback on her choice of name.

To me, growing it next to the typical OL, it seems to have a lot of the common traits seen with OL. One difference I saw, besides the fruit shape, was the size of the leaves- they were a bit larger than the OL. But this could have been due to conditions. I documented all of this last year on two different forums.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Interesting. Is Girl Girl's Weird Thing not a new variety? It is clearly a mutation of Green Zebra that showed up in a row of Green Zebra plants. Why wasn't it named "Green Zebra Red Striped" or something? Because the lady who discovered it decided to name it after her late dog, who adored it. And it is a tomato that will be in my garden every year. I don't recall any pushback on her choice of name.

To me, growing it next to the typical OL, it seems to have a lot of the common traits seen with OL. One difference I saw, besides the fruit shape, was the size of the leaves- they were a bit larger than the OL. But this could have been due to conditions. I documented all of this last year on two different forums.

Darin,I can only speak for myself here and now as one who edited the tomato section of the public SSE catalogs for several years,was contacted by SSE when an entry didn't make sense,and so much more.

Sometimes it's good that I'm as old as I am when it comes to back histories.

Some also name varieties with catchy names that get more attention and for sure the weird girl one is an excellent example and there are many more.

I could give you many more examples where an original name was lost and renamed,and more to the point someone just started calling a variety by another name.

For me that is not the right thing to do since it causes too much confusion,but what is,is,sadly.

Here's another one named after a dog b/c seeds were released before the variety was stable

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Coeur_de_Surpriz

I've shared with you my opinion and Dutch,who is doing seed production for OLH has agreed with me,but in the end the choice is yours ,and remember that Dutch was very clear in saying that wherever the seeds go,I posted about this as well,you will be credited as being the one who discovered it as was done with OM Heart, CP Heart,etc.

Since I was the so called mom of Omar's Lebanese,a preexisting variety as you know, perhaps I feel I should have some input.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Omar%27s_Lebanese

Carolyn

[Spartanburg123]

Carolyn, of course I appreciate your input! I also appreciate Omar Saab, who took the time to collect those seeds from the hills in Lebanon during a period of bereavement...

I also appreciate the levity of being able to sensibly name a new tomato variation that would not exist today if I hadn't noticed it, took the initiative to document these findings, and send seeds to you and one other to confirm the stable heart morphology.

With clear documentation of lineage and history as on this forum and others (including Tatiana's database), and with a name that is so very close to Omar's Lebanese to begin with, I don't believe there will be mass confusion.

I cannot imagine pre-internet days when these communications were done word-of-mouth and pencil/paper.

Interestingly, on another forum, this variation is temporarily called "Not Omar's Lebanese". I suppose this needs to be fixed as well

Thanks

Darin

[Dutch]

I see validity in many points made in this naming discussion. My own personal preference would be to see it named Omar’s Lebanese Heart for many of the same reasons Carolyn has stated.

I do understand Darin’s wish to honor his mother’s name and I can see it from that point of view. This bond appears to be the norm in the majority of mammals.

Darin does have the naming rights, but I suggest we all take a little time and try to view this as a disinterested third party would.

Darin I have some ideas I would like you to consider, but it will take me a little while to write them up, so please bear with me for a little longer before making a final decision.

I have to get back to the garden now. I have much to ponder. I will post back here at Tomatoville shortly after dark today when I come back in from the garden. Thanks again.
Dutch

[Dutch]

Que Será, Será
Dutch

[Spartanburg123]

Dutch- I hope you had a great holiday weekend! I had forgotten to ask you- have you had a chance to taste these maters? What is your feedback on that?

Thanks!

Darin

[Gardeneer]

We often hear the arguments here that one should not give a name know name to an unknown variety.
That said , I have this question :

How do you know/are sure that the variety in question ( O.L. Heart) is actually is OL ? and there is no crossing ?
Just a question.

[Spartanburg123]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

We often hear the arguments here that one should not give a name know name to an unknown variety.
That said , I have this question :

How do you know/are sure that the variety in question ( O.L. Heart) is actually is OL ? and there is no crossing ?
Just a question.

Good question Gardeneer- and I don't. What I do know is it came from the same seed packet as the other three I grew (actually six counting the year before), the plants had the same leaf habit, the tomatoes had the same dark green shoulders, and the taste was identical to me. I had two other plants growing right next to it. On my first plant, all of the fruit were hearts (although I didn't have many), and I believe Dutch showed the same behavior. Short of a DNA analysis, I don't know how else to tell this? Thanks!

Darin

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Dutch- I hope you had a great holiday weekend! I had forgotten to ask you- have you had a chance to taste these maters? What is your feedback on that?

Thanks!

Darin

Hi Darin,
I have taste all of the large ones that I have processed for seeds and they all taste great!
Below are a few more pictures. All plants are produce blunt hearts and only blunt hearts!
Omar'sLebaneseHeart_n.jpg
Omar'sLebaneseHeart_o.jpg
Dutch

[Spartanburg123]

Fantastic! Those are some robust looking plants! I also notice some slight "fluting" on some of the tomatoes in your picture- I also observed this with some of the "normal" OL growing around the heart-shaped variant. It's subtle.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

We often hear the arguments here that one should not give a name know name to an unknown variety.
That said , I have this question :

How do you know/are sure that the variety in question ( O.L. Heart) is actually is OL ? and there is no crossing ?
Just a question.

For the most part the person who first sources a variety defines what it should be,as I did in my heirloom book and as I've done for the many hundreds of varieties I was first to source in my SSE listings.

In one of these threads/posts,I've given the examples of

Orange Minsk and Orange Minsk Heart Kelloggs Breakfast and the PL form KBX
Cherokee Purple and Cherokee Purple Heart
Indian Stripe RL and IS PL

and right now I can't remember the other examples I gave.

I also said that I've been sent seeds with no info, so I have to ask that person where they got the seeds from, and when,and what else they might know,and if nothing then I had to grow it out and determine all the traits,and doing that not being the original source.

If there has been a cross pollination,then saving seeds and putting out several plants will show genetic segregation with perhaps different colored fruits,different leaf forms,internode differences,ect.It all depends on what the two parents were. But if the original seeds were true,and NOT X pollinated then all plants will be like the original.

If you want to see what happens when a non heart is deliberately crossed with a heart,then please go to Karen's thread where she discusses this a lot and shows the results.

Carolyn

[Spartanburg123]

Thanks Carolyn. So the consistency that Dutch has seen with his growout regarding leaf habit, fruit size and shape, color, and tasted indicates that the original seeds that I sent you are likely not a cross, correct?

I thought that documenting what I saw with pictures and explanations might make it easier for us to decipher the seed possibilities.

You know, I still have that seed pack from Totally Tomatoes that I planted last year....