Purple Haze

[rnewste]

I was just on Laurel's website and her Purple Haze are all Sold Out for 2009 - - and it's just February!

Ray

Purple Haze SOLD OUT ($8.95) (E)70 days.This is our rarest plant. The seeds for this exquisite deep purple fruit were given to me by Kansas City heirloom tomato grower and developer Keith Mueller. Keith developed a perfectly round 2" to 3" tomato with rapturous flavor, a seductive shape and sensuous color. Its name was inspired by its beguiling color and parental lineage which combines Brandywine, Cherokee Purple and Black Cherry.
The flavor, for the lucky few who have eaten one, is lively and sparkling with a fine tanginess, passionate with intense earthy nuances and a lingering sweetness. Early ripening, growing in great abundance on a huge plant in clusters of 5-7 fruits, it ripens in only 70 days from plant-out.

Adding to its extraordinary attributes, it has a subdued yet seductive saltiness-- challenging to describe. Whatever it is, this tomato put a spell on me.

Exceedingly rare, its ravishing beauty and flavor are unequaled in the tomato world. This is a rare opportunity for you to join the Purple Haze Experience. Supply is limited, please order early.

[Barryblushes]

Ouch Nine dollars for one tomato plant? A bit too steep for my wallet

[rnewste]

Barry,

I guess "value" is in the eye of the beholder....

....but the fact is that even at $9.00 (plus shipping) Laurel is Sold Out!! I'll bet she could charge $15.00 for Purple Haze F1 and still sell out. As I understand it, there is no more F1 seed entering the supply chain.

....of course, how any fans spent $1000+ for their ticket to Sunday's SuperBowl? So perhaps $9.00 for a very rare (and great tasting) tomato variety is not so far fetched.....

Ray

[Mischka]

Classic example of overhype, IMO. Laurel is famous for it.

No need to spend a ridiculous sum of money for a plant when there are hundreds of other varieties out there that taste as good, or better!

Same thing happened when her buddy Gary Ibsen sold his Marianna's Peace seeds at 6 for $20 back in 2002. With the help of Darrel Jones (Fusion_power), I sent out literally hundreds of Marianna's Peace seed packets for free, for those of you new to the heirloom tomato world.





This is a sore subject for me. I hate to see people get sucked in by hype. The only spell on her is a dizzy one.

[rnewste]

Mischka,

I certainly agree that Laurel's "prose" is quite creative, but the fact that she consistently sells out every year to repeat customers speaks for itself. I truly wish Keith M. would make seed available to the general public, and I have emailed him last year that I would be happy to send him a check for $100 made out to his Autism Foundation if he would just send me 100 F1 seeds. But no reply.

I am sure he (his Foundation) could generate contributions in exchange for making the "real deal" seeds available via a reputable distributor like Sandhill Preservation, etc. Right now, I am doing something really stupid in trying to nurse 3 Purple Haze F1 cuttings over winter. I would far rather just start some F1 seeds in the Spring. ....but maybe Keith has his reasons and wants to keep them private. Not my business anyhow.

Ray

[travis]

You can approximate the PH F1 by crossing certain available OPs yourself.

[Tania]

Originally Posted by Mischka

Classic example of overhype, IMO. Laurel is famous for it.

No need to spend a ridiculous sum of money for a plant when there are hundreds of other varieties out there that taste as good, or better!

Same thing happened when her buddy Gary Ibsen sold his Marianna's Peace seeds at 6 for $20 back in 2002. With the help of Darrel Jones, I sent out literally hundreds of Marianna's Peace seed packets for free, for those of you new to the heirloom tomato world.





This is a sore subject for me. I hate to see people get sucked in by hype. The only spell on her is a dizzy one.

Sorry folks for jumbing and interrupting Purple Haze discussion...
... but it could not help it...

Mishka, I love your Marianna's Peace seed packs picture. Could I possibly upload it to TOMATObase, giving you appropriate credits? (http://t-garden.homeip.net/mwiki/ind...anna%27s_Peace) That would be a good 'historical' documentary... Thank you, Tania

[hasshoes]

Two years ago before I found this site and the, uh, icky commercial laden forum , I didn't know anything about heirlooms or know anyone that knew anything about them either.

Without having access to "Top Ten" lists that are here and elsewhere now, I used Laurel's informative "favorite 50" list to pick about 20 varieties (most of which I grew myself, but I did get a few from Laurel), and I had really great results. All of my plants that I grew based on her descriptions tasted amazing!

That said, I think what sooo many here on Tomatoville do is beyond amazing and admirable! What a spectacular community!

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by Tania

Sorry folks for jumbing and interrupting Purple Haze discussion...
... but it could not help it...

Mischka, I love your Marianna's Peace seed packs picture. Could I possibly upload it to TOMATObase, giving you appropriate credits? (http://t-garden.homeip.net/mwiki/ind...anna%27s_Peace) That would be a good 'historical' documentary... Thank you, Tania

Upload away LOL

I still have all the bundles of mail from the requests, saved here somewhere. Yes, I am a packrat.

[tomatoaddict]

I think the story of Gary Isben and the Marianna's Peace was distastful. I'm not against anyone making a profit but it makes me question what someone's real motives are for their tomato business. I believe rare finds should be shared with the community at large just for the joy it brings to others that have a common passion. Back in 2007 when I received seeds for the Blaby Special from the U.K., I didn't hesitate to share what I had with a few select growers until I had seed from my own growout. I then went on to list them with SSE for all growers to enjoy this historical tomato.
As far as the PH F1 seeds. There might be more to this than meets the eye. It is possible that Keith is confined by some sort of contractual agreement or possibly he is getting a percentage of the profits already to his Autism organization. I am certain that someday we will know the whole story.

[dice]

Edit: (replace F3 with F4 in text below)

[reproducing Purple Haze F1 seeds]

The real trouble with this aim is that one parent was an F3.

Reproducing it by growing out the Cherokee Purple x
Brandywine F1, saving seeds, searching for a match
to the F2 parent of that F3, and then finding a duplicate of
the F3 parent of Purple Haze might need hundreds of
thousands of plants in both the F2 and F3 generations.

Even then it probably would not be an exact match, just close.

(Figure that any saved F2 seeds that he has from his original
growouts are all slightly genetically different from the F2
grandparent of Purple Haze, so starting with those does not
help, and likewise any saved F3 seeds that he has from the
F2 selection that produced the Purple Haze line are also slightly
different from the F3 parent that he crossed with Black Cherry
to produce Purple Haze.)

It was only going to be here until he ran out of seeds of
Purple Haze itself, all saved from one F3 or Black Cherry
plant, depending on which was the female parent of
Purple Haze. His other saved F3 seeds are just not
the same exact mix of genes as the F3 parent of Purple Haze.

I think the best course is to grow out Purple Haze F2s,
F3s, F4s, and so on and look for selections that approach
the productivity and flavor of the original Purple Haze F1.
Maybe someone gets lucky and finds the combination that
produced the Purple Haze flavor (or close enough for the
palate).

It is not like the Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red F1, that
anyone can reproduce anytime just by crossing plants of
those two stable OP parents (that will always contribute the
same sets of genes to the F1 seeds).

[travis]

Except that you don't know which line of Brandywine was used to make the cross with NAR. And that puts it into exactly the same category as what you're describing with reachieving the PH F1, except that the Brandywine was not an F3 recombinant.

However my original comment was that you could approximate, not replicate, PH F1 by using a particular available open pollinated variety to cross with Black Cherry. I think it would be close, but as you point out, not exact.

[dice]

Originally Posted by travis

Except that you don't know which line of Brandywine was used to make the cross with NAR. And that puts it into exactly the same category as what you're describing with reachieving the PH F1, except that the Brandywine was not an F3 recombinant.

Right. It could have been Brandywine Sudduth or simply some
generic pink Brandywine. The variation would not be as
large as between two F3s, but it could still make a difference
in the flavor, earliness, production, etc of the
Brandywine x NAR F1.

However my original comment was that you could approximate, not replicate, PH F1 by using a particular available open pollinated variety to cross with Black Cherry. I think it would be close, but as you point out, not exact.

That is a reasonable approach. It would not have to be
exactly Purple Haze, the idea is only to produce something
like it that is as tasty and productive as Purple Haze. I was
simply explaining the difficulty of producing more seed
of Purple Haze F1 itself. There was only ever that one F3
parent plant with its own particular set of genes.

One approach might be to cross Black Cherry with the three
stable OP cultivars that came out of that original
Brandywine x Cherokee Purple cross (Gary'O Sena, Dora,
Liz Birt), and see what happens. If none of the F1s is
satisfactory, one could also try backcrossing any of the F1s
to any of Gary'O Sena, Dora, Liz Birt, Brandywine, Cherokee
Purple, or Black Cherry again.

That would be 3 F1s to produce, and 6 F1 x parent backcrosses,
6 F1 x grandparent backcrosses, and 6 F1 x parent's_cousin
crosses to experiment with. Since all of the parents, parent's
cousins, and grandparents are stable OPs, results should be
reproducible (assuming no bees or other random
cross-pollinators at work), as long as one keeps seeds from any
parent and grandparent cultivars used for backcrossing
(remembering the observation about different Brandywine
selections).

One could add Spudakee x Black Cherry and
Vorlon x Black Cherry crosses to provide some perspective, too.

[travis]

While your approach is valid I suppose, it reflects too complicated a thought process in my opinion. And maybe not complete enough at the same time. But no reason to get a headache overthinking it.

First of all, I think the large size parent of PH was an F4, so it was 87.5% homozygotous and relatively more stable than the impression I'm getting from your assessment of it as an F3.

Secondly, there are more lines out there than the ones you named comprised of the gene base operable in that parent F4. And one of them might be a closer match to the F4 parent than those you've named.

Lastly, while Spudakee might provide perspective, I doubt it comes anywhere near comprising even 50% of one half the gene base required to duplicate PH. Interesting thought though. And I don't know anything about Vorlon.

[newatthiskat]

HMM Ray has F1 still going. How about crossing f1 with the f3 and see what you get?? The other ideas were way too complicated for me ROFLOL
Kat