Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by PaddyMc

How's the tournament going? Still no big rush, but I'd still love to hear more about the selection strategy for OTV, and your other thoughts on my idea about general heirloom history.
Thanks!

That tournament was the 1000 Masters tournament in Indian Wells, CA, and now it's the same with the Sony one in Miami, but I've had no time to even watch that one.

Paddy, you can help by getting youtrself to my home and helping me get all these new varieties sorted out. I let the four folks helping me with seed production make their own choices off the list I sent, I rotate who goes first each year, to be fair.

Some wanted the same varieties, so now I have to count seeds to see if there's enough seeds for both and for some enough seeds to send to Craig in Raleigh who raises my plants for me.

And I'm still waiting for some new seeds to arrive. Yesterday two new ones from Clara (Germany)came, she'd sent some great ones earlier, I love the name of one that came yesterday called Heartbreaker in translation, waiting for some seeds from Fred Hempel, and still waiting for seeds from Marina in Russia. She got mine, and we sent each other seeds just one day apart, but mine aren't here yet.

You're not going anywhere, nor am I so when things calm down I'll get back to you, I will, on some of what you said in your original post, with which I don't agree.

Do I donothng other than fool around with seeds every day and night? No way, I have other responsibilities and things I want/need to do as well.
But quickly, my selection for what Craig and I named OTV Brandywine was based on the picture that was sent back to Craig L, who had sent seeds of Yellow Brandywine to this person and the picture and F2 seeds were sent back to Craig.

So I tried to select for a large red beefsteak on a plant with PL foliage as was shown in the picture from the F2 seeds sent back.

And it took me out to the F5 or F6, I can't remember right now, before I had it and it was stable. And that's growing out and making selections each summer. No greenhouse growing, just 5-6 long years making selections each summer.

Carolyn

[sicily]

PaddyMc,

Kudos to you. I just found this post and find it a bit caustic to say the least. You expressed exactly how I feel in a very eloquent way. I'm very happy to experiment with some of these crosses and feel very lucky and happy to do so. Bill Jeffers and Tom Wagner are my tomato heros. Big Cheef is my favorite tomato via Bill and Tom's creations never cease to amaze. I have the utmost respect for them both, and hope their creations will always be in my garden. I'm a gardener not a geneticist. I do enjoy tomatoes that are delicious, productive, disease resistant, and are exciting to look at. They produce tomatoes that do that for me, I'm very grateful. I've never met them but have conversed with them both and believe they are honest in how they represent their offerings. After growing Big Cheef, via SSE, I contacted Bill to see if he had any other tomatoes, it was the most delicious tomato I had ever tried. I certainly hope they both keep doing their research into giving us exceptional tomatoes, I hope I can be a part of it.

[Solanum315]

[QUOTE=doublehelix;324920][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
I find it hard to believe seed vendors are selling unstable hybrids, and billing them as open pollinated.

I noticed that you are one of the first vendors to sell Nagcarlang. Not sure if you know this but Nagcarlang is almost certainly a landrace. If you look around, there is a wide variety of shapes, sizes and colors attributed to this variety. I asked a fruit vendor in the Philippines what kind of tomatoes he was selling and he told me "Nagcarlang". The first picture I attached is of his bin. Then in 2011 I ordered Nagcarlang from GRIN and what grew out is depicted in the second photo. There is a fellow from Buffalo that asserts that Nagcarlang looks more like a small red beefsteak and I recall you depicted it as a black tomato.
I am guessing that your source was either GRIN or someone who got it from GRIN. Quite honestly, I think that a lot of the varieties from there were landraces when they were acquired by USDA and either have stabilized somewhat in the decades they have been maintained in GRIN custody or on the contrary, have further hybridized (as I do not think they are as meticulous about segregation and bagging blossoms as we might want to imagine). Maybe you stabilized your strain and if you want to call it Nagcarlang, more power to you. There are different strains of Brandywine that are accepted by the most elitist tomato nerds so why shouldn't you be able to stabilize and sell your strain of a landrace?
I guess my point here is that variety is the spice of life and certainly a large part of the fun of tomato growing IMO. No one can honestly be sure that Brandywine is the same Brandywine grown in the 1930s. I would say that it is quite unlikely that it is. I think we should make a good faith effort to maintain varieties in some cognizable form (if possible), to let buyers know when a variety is less than F6 and give credit where it is due but to bag on backyard breeders is just silly.

[QUOTE=doublehelix;324920][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]
When the seeds from Tomatoville’s Dwarf project were stolen, there was an interesting quote.

How were they stolen? I kinda thought you were allowed to take seeds at Tomatopalooza. I only took German Queen and Mexico Midget the one year I went but it seemed to be an open practice. I respect people's hard work but are we really advocating the ownership of life forms here?

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Solanum315

How were they stolen? I kinda thought you were allowed to take seeds at Tomatopalooza. I only took German Queen and Mexico Midget the one year I went but it seemed to be an open practice. I respect people's hard work but are we really advocating the ownership of life forms here?

This is part of the agreement that everyone agrees to to become part of the project

3. What is expected of participants.

* As a participant it is essential that you agree not to share any seeds from the tomatoes you grow for the project each season. There will be a separate thread for you to post in to make this commitment, and everyone who posts their agreement in it is very welcome to take part.

I don't remember the details, but someone stated passing seed around that wasn't part of the official release and only partially developed. Not as the seed being immature but being unstable and not theirs to release.

[carolyn137]

(There are different strains of Brandywine that are accepted by the most elitist tomato nerds so why shouldn't you be able to stabilize and sell your strain of a landrace?)

You've called me a nerd before and explained that it's a term of affection, but now I guess you've upped it to elitist nerd.

I'm not going to go into the two definitions of strain here since a search will bring up several threads, one being titled What is a Strain, as I recall.

Now to Nagcarlang, or however one wants to spell it. There's lots of info about it and the two Filipino ones here at TV and in one of the links below Steve, Double Helix, explains his research about it.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...ight=nagcarlan

The above in no particular order.

Carolyn

[Solanum315]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

(There are different strains of Brandywine that are accepted by the most elitist tomato nerds so why shouldn't you be able to stabilize and sell your strain of a landrace?)

You've called me a nerd before and explained that it's a term of affection, but now I guess you've upped it to elitist nerd.

I'm not going to go into the two definitions of strain here since a search will bring up several threads, one being titled What is a Strain, as I recall.

Now to Nagcarlang, or however one wants to spell it. There's lots of info about it and the two Filipino ones here at TV and in one of the links below Steve, Double Helix, explains his research about it.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...light=filipino

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...ight=nagcarlan

The above in no particular order.

Carolyn

Carolyn,
You have been helpful to me since I first started growing OP seeds and posting to GW circa 2008. I don't have you in mind when I use the term "elitist tomato nerd". If you were elitist you wouldn't respond to as many newbie questions as I have seen you answer over the years. Tomato nerd? Yes, as am I. However, not in the same class. As an English major and liberal arts guy that avoided hard science until flight school, my knowledge of tomato genetics is limited to little more than "PL is recessive". So, much respect to you for being able to say specifically why tomatoes do what they do.
I did read the links you posted but nothing really addressed the stability of Nagcarlang. I think the bulk of evidence points to it not being stable unless someone has taken the time to personally walk it through F6.

[Solanum315]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

This is part of the agreement that everyone agrees to to become part of the project
I don't remember the details, but someone stated passing seed around that wasn't part of the official release and only partially developed. Not as the seed being immature but being unstable and not theirs to release.

Ah, ok. That is reasonable to want to maintain some control over the project.

[tomatoaddict]

Interesting. I came across this thread searching for info about Jim Dandy. A variety a customer said they were growing. I was looking at my seed inventory and I have listed "Jumbo Jim PL" but I have no idea where I got it or how old it is. I wasn't so good at dating things in the beginning which makes me think it's older. Good info.

[OldHondaNut]

I can tell you first hand that I tried to de-hybrid Bush Big Boy after Burpee removed it from its offerings about 5 years ago. It was unsuccessful and after a bit of work I consider it 100% a waste of time. Add to it the fact that last year they brought it back and I bought 160 seeds which is about 40 years worth. Looks like it is still there but a word to the wise: If you like your hybrid, keep it yourself. They come and go so often it can make your head spin.

I germinate 10 year old seeds that I DON'T take care of. These are in the fridge and should last much longer.

They have never kept me from planting my OP heirlooms, just saying...

[zero244]

This is my first post.........it took weeks to get verified hopefully after I make this post I will be able to view photos.
This year I am growing 14 plants and 8 different strains. In the past I've grown whatever was sold at the nursery which meant nothing but hybrids though that is changing.
But I finally saw the light and discovered heirloom and open pollinated varieties.
I doubt I will ever buy or grow anything else. I am growing one Monsanto hybrid called Tye Dye just out of curiosity.
My tomato interest is about 50\50 indeterminate and bush dwarf strains.
The various seed exchanges and the USDA are doing wonders to preserve the older OP varieties.
I don't necessarily mind having to buy seeds every year like you have to do with the hybrids, but in most cases the flavor is missing when your compare hybrids vs OP strains.
I haven't bought a store bought tomato in over 15 months. I grew a 506 Bush tomato indoors this past winter under HID lighting and was amazed how much better it tasted over any store bought tomato.
I just wished I would of discovered this years ago instead of wasting my time growing Celebrity and Early Girl etc.

[travis]

You say Tye Dye is a Monsanto product? I thought it was a Burpee development.

[Fusion_power]

Travis, Tye Dye as sold by Burpee was developed by Doug Heath when he worked for Seminis/Monsanta. He used LA2533 as a source for a late blight tolerant gene. I have not seen confirmation, but suspect that it is ph3.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Travis, Tye Dye as sold by Burpee was developed by Doug Heath when he worked for Seminis/Monsanta. He used LA2533 as a source for a late blight tolerant gene. I have not seen confirmation, but suspect that it is ph3.

Then why did Burpee name it Tye Dye, the same name that Brad Gates had developed and was selling seeds for it at the same time.?

I remember that there were many here who wote to Burpee about that, very upset, but I don't remember if anyone posted any responses or even if Burpee responded.

Bill ?

Until quite recently Burpee had contracted out to Petoseed for development of what they wanted and they had the right to name those new ones anything they wanted to.

I know that Burpee has recently started a breeding program in Buck's County,PA.their headquarters,but the Tye Dye stuff was quite a few years ago.

Petoseed has been a part of Seminis ever since Monsanto bought Seminis so I'm going to assume that Heath worked for Petoseed on contract to Burpee.

Carolyn

[Fusion_power]

Travis, if you would like a bit more info, look up patent 5,866,764 in the U.S. patent office files. Summarizing, they found high resistance to late blight in LA2533 and introgressed it into a cultivated tomato background. Unfortunately, they didn't identify the gene and they didn't make crosses to known ph2 (West Virginia 63) and ph3 (NC1 Celebr) containing lines to see if the resistance is identical or unique. When I called Doug Heath, I specifically asked if it was ph3 and he replied that he did not know for sure at that time. Since then, I've been told that he stated to at least one person that it was probably ph3, but this is NOT confirmed.

I am growing Tye Dye this year with the specific purpose of crossing it to Lucky Cross. I'd love to see Lucky Cross flavor in a late blight tolerant tomato.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Travis, if you would like a bit more info, look up patent 5,866,764 in the U.S. patent office files. Summarizing, they found high resistance to late blight in LA2533 and introgressed it into a cultivated tomato background. Unfortunately, they didn't identify the gene and they didn't make crosses to known ph2 (West Virginia 63) and ph3 (NC1 Celebr) containing lines to see if the resistance is identical or unique. When I called Doug Heath, I specifically asked if it was ph3 and he replied that he did not know for sure at that time. Since then, I've been told that he stated to at least one person that it was probably ph3, but this is NOT confirmed.

I am growing Tye Dye this year with the specific purpose of crossing it to Lucky Cross. I'd love to see Lucky Cross flavor in a late blight tolerant tomato.

I think most of you know that my knowledge of tomato genetics is lacking, compared to most of you, but I still have questions.

Fusion, so far I'm following you about Tye Dye, but I am curious to know if Doug Heath is with Petoseed, specifically. I'm curious b'c I'd like to know if Petoseed is still doing most of the breeding for Burpee, or if they are getting anything out of their own breeding program.

And still curious b'c for the past several years, for reasons unknown, I've been sent an invitation by Burpee to attend some kind of conference at their headquarters about new varieties,perhaps a show and tell.

I once had several productive phone chats with George Ball who was the one who told me how John Peto left Burpee, took seeds for Teddy Jones, the one parent of Big boy F1, with him when he went to CA and started Petoseed.

And I still want to get back to my original question here about what defines an F1 hybrid, in terms of the degree of heterozygosity. Yes, I know that many hybrids have gene pairs/alleles, that are homozygous, but I've always been curious about Santa F1 plants showing offtypes, which is not the same as some F1's giving what I call mule plants which are much larger than the regular F1 and have no buds, no blossoms, no nothing and could be IDed in the tomato fields of my farmer friend Charlie.

So I'm hoping that someone here will address my above question, as in there must be something that defines an F1 hybrid other than it's just a cross of two OP's for the earliest ones bred and many more parental inputs for more modern ones where there are two separate breeding lines leading to the last two OP's in each line being crossed.

Give me a break, if you will, since I'll be 75 this month and my curiousity is what helps my brain to keep functiong.

Carolyn