Squash breeding project

[jmsieglaff]

Glad to hear you guys are growing again! Please post your results! I'll be growing F2 in a size limited grow out. I will be selecting for vining habit, flavor, production, and pest/disease tolerance.

[imp]

I'm really curious as to how this goes. I like vining squash that can be trellised.

[jmsieglaff]

Steve and Monty,

Any updates to your grow outs?

I started 4 cow pots of F2 seed and they were planted a few days ago. I'll let the plants in each spot get a couple true leaves and then cull all but the tallest, hopefully selecting for vining habit in the process.

Justin

[jmsieglaff]

Thanks for the update Monty! I hope you find something you really like! I'll be sharing pictures through the summer, just as soon as I've got something worth showing!

[Stvrob]

I have four plants growing from Justin's F1 seeds he sent me last year. Little yellow pear shapes with various green zucchini pattern at the blossom end.

Also, I attempted to grow out one of the F1's last year, but my daughter accidentally picked it before it was ripe. Surprisingly, one of these is growing out of the compost pile, so apparently at least 1 seed was ripe after all. (No other C. Pepo was grown in my garden last year so I assume this volunteer is the F2). Anyway, the vine is extremely vigorous, more so than the F1, and the fruit is all yellow, and more lemon shaped than the pear shaped F1's. Also no zucchini pattern at the blossom end. I haven't eaten one yet. Lots of female fruits have gone unpollinated, hope that's not going to be a problem.

Not very scientific, I know.

You think I should back cross it with the F1? Or self it for an F3? If I backcrossed it, does it matter which is male or female?

PS Ill try to get some pictures tomorrow.

[jmsieglaff]

Sounds good Steve! If the F2 is something you like I'd say self and see how the F3 is. Not really sure about back-crossing to the F1. I could see a reason for back-crossing to one of the original parents, but then again I'm certainly not a genetic expert. Looking forward to your pics and reports on flavor.

[Darren Abbey]

Originally Posted by Stvrob

You think I should back cross it with the F1? Or self it for an F3? If I backcrossed it, does it matter which is male or female?

The gender won't generally matter with squash (though it might if you were working with interspecific hybrids).

Backcrossing is useful when you want to transfer a single (or a few) traits, while discarding the rest of the traits, from one variety into another. It is really important when one of the parent varieties is toxic or otherwise unsuitable for general use. When both parent varieties are quite edible, the value of back-crossing is diminished. Back-crossing is also only simple to do when dealing with dominant traits. Recessive traits take at least twice as many generations.

Because both of the original varieties were very nice in their own right, selfing it for several generations while selecting for the type/growth/etc. you prefer would be what I'd advise.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by Darren Abbey

The gender won't generally matter with squash (though it might if you were working with interspecific hybrids).

Backcrossing is useful when you want to transfer a single (or a few) traits, while discarding the rest of the traits, from one variety into another. It is really important when one of the parent varieties is toxic or otherwise unsuitable for general use. When both parent varieties are quite edible, the value of back-crossing is diminished. Back-crossing is also only simple to do when dealing with dominant traits. Recessive traits take at least twice as many generations.

Because both of the original varieties were very nice in their own right, selfing it for several generations while selecting for the type/growth/etc. you prefer would be what I'd advise.

Thanks Dr Darren!

I'm going to try to self it in the morning, its always hard for me to tell the night before whether a flower is ready to open the next day.

Some pics

[jmsieglaff]

Thanks for posting Steve! It will be interesting to see how different the 3 of our F2 squash look (and taste). Also, I like your use of painter's tape, it would be a lot easier to see than the off-white masking tape I've used before.

The F1 you have are very much like mine and Monty's from last year. Although I saw tremendous variation on the amount of green--even on the same plant. I attributed it to powdery mildew and cooler weather stress somehow changing what genetics were expressed in the fruit. Darren, any thoughts on how that worked? I think you can see the variation in the pictures I posted last summer/early fall.

[Stvrob]

Hey Justin!

I have seen alot of variation with the zucchini green this year on the F1, but last year they all were pretty much like the one in the first picture above. In the 4th picture, there are two more F1's near displaying more of the green variation.

For whatever reason, the F1 is a bit tastier than the F2, but I only have one F2 plant to choose from. Also, I should point out, ive only eaten one of the F2's, and it was probably a day past its prime.

My wife has thrown a wrench in the mix by reminding me she thru an old spaghetti squash that someone gave us into the compost pile last year. I feel pretty sure, though, that the fruit labelled F2 above couldn't possibly be a spaghetti squash?

Could it? they are both C. pepo?

I need to fix the above pics, can't figure out why they posted upside down.

[jmsieglaff]

Thanks for sharing Monty! Keep the updates coming! I have thinned to 4 plants. I will start another 4 cow pots that will follow my sugar snap peas in very late June or more likely ealry July. At this stage one of my 4 have slightly more mottling in the leaf veins, otherwise they look similar.

[jmsieglaff]

I'll make a note of looking at the stem color. Maybe I'll grow 1 F1 with my next group of F2.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by monty71466

Anecdotally, I'm seeing F2s with a light stem. I want to point it out to watch. My two and Steve's 1 have light stems whereas the F1s had very dark stems. Even my LLT has a darker stem than the F2s as well. Wonder if there's anything to it??

Yes. My F2 produces fruit with Light stem, No zucchini green skin, the fruit is round rather than oblate. I haven't decided whether the taste is awesome or not ( but the F1's ARE very tasty).

Also, my F2 seems to be more vigorous (12 feet of vine, vs only about 5 ft on the F1), and also seems more eager to branch. Could be environmental, the F2 is in better soil, but less sun).

I haven't been able to self it yet, every fruit I pick out seems to abort before I get it untaped. Maybe I need to review a book on the Birds and the Bees.

[Stvrob]

Originally Posted by monty71466

Steve, in case you didn't know, it's best to pollinate before noon for sure. Ideal, for me, seems to be between 8 and 10 am. At 2, might work, but unlikely. At 4, won't work. Pollen dead. Flowers to use are unopened, slightly yellow. They always open next am. Just in case you didn't know.

So you tape a male and female the night before and open them in the morning? In the morning when you take off the tape, and the flower doesn't open, what do you do? Force it open? Or wait till the next day? I keep misjudging what day the flower is going to open. And then having the tape still on it a whole more day, the fruit ends up aborting.
Maybe I should have planted a more prolific variety to practice on.

[jmsieglaff]

I tape closed flowers (male and female) that have yellow blush in the evening, those flowers will open the next morning if they are not taped shut. In the morning, I snip the male flower off, remove the petals, take the tape off the female, rub the anthers all over and around the stigma and then retape the female flower. Sometimes I'll use 2 male flowers for each female. I do this before I go to work, maybe 1-2 hrs after sunrise. I have a very high rate of success. I agree, the longer you wait into a given day, the chances for success will be less.