Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[nadine18]

Oh and apparently there is a red Sweet Beverley now.
sbred.jpg

Which is a cross and is being sold to unsuspecting customers -
sbred1.jpg

sbred2.jpg

[surf4grrl]

You know, I also understand things do not necessarily conform to the shape exact shape.

These plants were throwing the shape exact shape on all plants throughout the entire growing season in 2011. Meaning, pears stayed pears, rounds stayed rounds etc etc.

They were stable along the individual plants. They weren't changing shapes as was stated as the season continued (as was suggested in one of those screen shots).

The thing that turned me off for good was having an obvious a cross, having been told "gee no, I NEVER saw that white tomato before" - and then having it come out months later as a new variety. & to be told that I should've taken the photo with the tomato on the plant because further proof was needed!

Plus, all this nonsense talk about growing throughout the year in greenhouses through the winter to stabilize all these varieties.

Do the math people, do you know how many thousands of square feet you'd need in a greenhouse to stabilize it to an F7? You couldn't do that with what amounts to large unheated sheds/hobby greenhouses!

You need alot of space and alot of plants - for just one variety to stabilize.

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

The thing that turned me off for good was having an obvious a cross, having been told "gee no, I NEVER saw that white tomato before" - and then having it come out months later as a new variety. & to be told that I should've taken the photo with the tomato on the plant because further proof was needed.

The "white" is now being called "Sweet Sharon", and "Sweet Beverley Red" is recognized as a cross and called "Sweet Sharon X".

[GunnarSK]

Originally Posted by nadine18

Can a tomato become less stable over time? Maybe that's how all these "sister" lines are magically created!

If there's magic involved, you never know.

[GunnarSK]

Apparently there are two outcrosses, "Sweet Beverley Red" and "Sweet Sharon X" with different mother plants.

[travis]

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

Plus, all this nonsense talk about growing throughout the year in greenhouses through the winter to stabilize all these varieties.

Do the math people, do you know how many thousands of square feet you'd need in a greenhouse to stabilize it to an F7? You couldn't do that with what amounts to large unheated sheds/hobby greenhouses!

You need alot of space and alot of plants - for just one variety to stabilize.

First off, there is a method of stabilization called single seed descent, used by many plant breeders.

"I use single seed descent for most of my work ..." [Tom Wagner, http://tatermater.★★★★★★★★★.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=375& page=1 ]

Single seed descent method is applicable and convenient when the breeder is limited in garden or greenhouse space.

Many gardeners today are enjoying untold numbers of heirloom varieties that were selected and stabilized using the single seed descent method.

Edit: Apparently, I posted a hyperlink disallowed for a reason unknown to me. I apologize. My intent was only to document my quote of Mr. Wagner.

[surf4grrl]

Here is a better link -

http://agriinfo.in/default.aspx?page...3&topicid=1761

Pertinent quote -

In this method, only one seed is selected randomly from each plant n F2 and subsequent generations. The selected seed is bulked and is used to grow the newts generation. This process is continue upto F5 generation. By this time desired level of homozygosity is achieved. In F6, large number of single plant, 200-500 are selected and their progeny are grown separately. In F7 and F8, selections are practised between progeny and superior progeny and are isolated based on preliminary replicated trial. The superior progenies are then tested in multiplication trails and the best progeny is identified for release.
The main objectives of single seed descent method is to rapidly advantage the generation of crosses and at the end of method a random sample of homozygous genotype is obtained.

It does not account for less plants, only seed randomization in F2 which is then bulked.

General principles involved in this method is that, only one ( single) seed collected from each of the F2 plants ( 10000 to 20000) and then bulked to grow the next ( F3) generation.

& you can't short-change statistics, you still need a large population to stabilize a F7. Alot Tom's stuff is still segregating out.

But it is still not an "explanation" for the exponential spate of "grow-outs" and a real lack of documentation of these crosses. I know you are friends and eager to defend this, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Tom Wagner, a breeder of considerable experience and acumen, is no comparison for someone doing this for a few years.

[travis]

Thank you for linking to a document which I previously have read and understand completely.

Originally Posted by surf4grrl

Tom Wagner, a breeder of considerable experience and acumen, is no comparison for someone doing this for a few years.

While I agree completely that Mr. Wagner's experience and acumen in tomato breeding far exceeds that of the persons to whom you obvously refer, I think I'll await Mr. Wagner's comments, so we are able to understand how he employs single seed descent, and whether his method comports in detail with the method described in the document to which you link.

[surf4grrl]

I appreciate you trying to drag Tom into this but this isn't about Tom Wagner or single seed descent.

This is about Sweet Beverly, Sweet Sharon and the conflicting stories many of us have gotten and continued to get.

I bring up the "year round growing" because it is the trope that we keep hearing is "we can grow to an F7" is 3-4 years for so very many varieties (what is it this year 3,000 varieties????) - are coming out and its suspect given that the single supposedly "stable variety" found on an abandoned farm now has various incarnations.

I've seen the numbers, and the stats, and honestly don't care. I know what a single human being can do per acre of tomatoes with documentation of those varieties. The idea this is jealousy is absurd.

So, I know the numbers don't add up. It's fiction - if you farmed for a living, you'd understand it better.

[nadine18]

Originally Posted by travis

First off, there is a method of stabilization called single seed descent, used by many plant breeders.

So when you join the inner circle, do you get like a hand out or something on how to derail a thread? I think you forgot rule #3, there does not seem to be any humor in your post. Although, I did have to laugh that GunnarSK made three posts and the only new information that I got from them was that, dang that Beverley sure does seem to get around.

As for this method you are posting about, are your homies using it? I think not. Which is too bad, because it seems like the perfect method to use if you are breeding tomatoes just so you can mark a really cool name off the list.

I don't actually think your posse has a method, it seems to me that they just cross willy nilly and send out the seeds to anyone that will grow them. Then they keep and name every dang tomato that grows out. "ohhh, what a great find..." Has your crew ever met a bad tomato? Obviously not, or the rest of us wouldn't be subjected to hundreds of pictures of butt ugly tomatoes on a dirty blue plate.

If you really want to add something to this thread, why don't you pick one of the many crosses your friends have made and give us an exact timeline showing just how they go from cross to stable in 2 years.

[travis]

Surf4Grrl, I was not speaking to Sweet Beverley or any of its variants. I grew it once. One plant, one time, so I don't have enough information or experience with it to offer an opinion as to its stability, or any other of its qualities.


Mine was a simple reply to your assertion that a line of tomatoes cannot be brought to stability in a shortened timespan by using a greenhouse to get a generation or two through cold months. And I simply used Mr. Wagner's quote as an example of someone with whom we are all familiar who uses single seed descent methodology, or some form of it, to arrive at a stable selection.


I guess I could've just as easily suggested we hear from someone who has used that or another methodology to arrive at a stable line of Ramapo OP at the F3, or Brandywine OTV in whatever filial generation that was accomplished, or any number of open pollinated tomato varieties or "strains" (i.e., Yellow Brandywine, Platfoot) that heirloom tomato growers enjoy today that were developed without employing the hard and fast rules that require massive blocks of plants in each generation from F2 to F7, etc.


And please don't confuse me with someone who is unable to do the math or discern the difference between hummus and horse hockey. This ain't my first trip around the block, and I do have a bit of experience with horticulture and plant breeding beyond the few years I've putzed around with this current tomato hobby.

[travis]

Nadine18, I fail to see where I either did or intended to derail this thread. In fact, reading back through it, it seems the only times I have posted a message in this thread was in reply to some point or other, made by another member, and to which I thought to offer additional information that might help resolve a misconception regarding a method I use or a seed I might produce.

And please don't confuse me with a member of "a posse" or "a crew" or a person who requires a script or laundry list from which to cherry pick and post a reply in a tomato forum.

Additionally, I have never made a cross between two tomato lines in a "willy nilly" fashion. To the contrary, I select the parents to a cross with forethought and purpose.

So, now that I think of it, you must have me confused with someone else.

Yes, I have met a bad tomato. Yes, some of the bad tomatoes I have met were ones that grew among a filial generation of a cross I made myself. That's why I cull mercilessly.

As far as providing an exact timeline of someone else's work and product, what's the point? It's not my job to do, and to prove someone else's claim is of no concern to me.

[carolyn137]

I'm the person Travis was referring to when he mentioned the OP Ramapo which was stable at the F3, and that so since the two hybrid parents were very similar varieties. It meant growing out the hybrid, saving F2 seeds, replanting those, saving F3 seeds, making selectionos and at each growout also planting the original hybrid for comparison. It took 3 years and I could only grow plants in the summer.

I'm also the person he was referring to who was able to develop what Craig L and I called OTV Brandywine. OTV stands for Off the Vine, an international tomato newsletter that Craig and I were publishing at the time. Craig had sent out seeds of Yellow Brandywine to someone and got back a picture of a good looking PL red beefsteak along with seeds. Since I had a whole field for my tomato growing at the time, much more than Craig had , I did the dehybridization.It took me out to I think the F6 or F7,making selections and saving seeds to get to what we called OTV Brandywine that was stable. Again, I could only grow plants in the summer.

So about 3 years for the Ramapo OP and maybe 6-7 years for the OTV one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not thrilled with the tone of some recent posts in this thread. This is not the place to be making some of the accusations I've seen, as I see it. If there are specific issues that need to be discussed, please take it to e-mails or PM's.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Yes, I get paid for being a Global Moderator here and I get an extra $$$ bonus when I have to post what I just did, but while any extra money goes to my dark Chocolate budget, I really don't need it.

And if you believe that above paragraph, you're too far out there to appreciate my attempt at a bit of humor.

Carolyn

[PaddyMc]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I'm the person Travis was referring to when he mentioned the OP Ramapo which was stable at the F3, and that so since the two hybrid parents were very similar varieties. It meant growing out the hybrid, saving F2 seeds, replanting those, saving F3 seeds, making selectionos and at each growout also planting the original hybrid for comparison. It took 3 years and I could only grow plants in the summer.

I'm also the person he was referring to who was able to develop what Craig L and I called OTV Brandywine. OTV stands for Off the Vine, an international tomato newsletter that Craig and I were publishing at the time. Craig had sent out seeds of Yellow Brandywine to someone and got back a picture of a good looking PL red beefsteak along with seeds. Since I had a whole field for my tomato growing at the time, much more than Craig had , I did the dehybridization.It took me out to I think the F6 or F7,making selections and saving seeds to get to what we called OTV Brandywine that was stable. Again, I could only grow plants in the summer.

So about 3 years for the Ramapo OP and maybe 6-7 years for the OTV one.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not thrilled with the tone of some recent posts in this thread. This is not the place to be making some of the accusations I've seen, as I see it. If there are specific issues that need to be discussed, please take it to e-mails or PM's.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Yes, I get paid for being a Global Moderator here and I get an extra $$$ bonus when I have to post what I just did, but while any extra money goes to my dark Chocolate budget, I really don't need it.

And if you believe that above paragraph, you're too far out there to appreciate my attempt at a bit of humor.

Carolyn

Thanks for jumping in Carolyn, and for the OTV story. It's one of my favorite 'Brandywines' (even though it's not a Brandywine). . I'd love to know, from a strategic perspective, apx. how many OTV plants you grew out per generation for selection? And how closely the final product resembles the "original" (F1 or F2, whatever you had first)?
To me, one of the most interesting facets of this debate, is that I suspect very few of our most classic heirlooms were "properly" bred. The simple fact is that creating a stable tomato in three years is EASY. Grow the F1 in the summer, a couple F2's in the green house in the fall (F2), send 'em south to a growing buddy for an early start. The south gets you to F3 (barely) in a year and a month or two. Repeat. In year three, you could easily be at F7/8 and stable for whatever you've ended up with, only growing a couple plants per generation. Whatever you've got at F8 will be 99.9% stable.
This is "wrong", because rather than seeing ALL the genetic possibilities represented in the cross (as you would growing 100's of plants per generation), you're playing the genetic lottery, and growing a couple random plants per generation. But the F8 will be stable for whatever traits you've ended up with.
Funny thing is, I have a sneaking suspicion that many of our most beloved varieties came into being in exactly that manor. This is especially true of older varieties, and family heirlooms. I truly doubt that the person who first found Cherokee Purple, for example, found the cross, and then grew out hundreds of them in a field, carefully selected for dozens of traits over 8 generations, and then said "there, it's perfect!" I think it's much more likely that they discovered the F1, thought "this is good", grew a few plants a year for many years, saving seeds from the ones they liked the most, and we ended up with a "classic" variety. That may even be why so many of our best heirlooms taste sooooo great, but are disease vulnerable, low production or store poorly. Taste is the phenotype most selected for by people making "unprofessional" selections, especially those growing small scale. Say you're a hobby gardener and you have three plants, and plant #1 tastes great, plant #2's ok, and plant #3 tastes like horse dookey, you're most likely to save seeds from #1.
The real question we should be asking isn't "Are these new crosses good enough?" Instead we should be asking "Are our old, beloved standard varieties as good as they could have been?"

The flip side of this coin is that we now have a deep understanding of genetic inheritance and of "best practice" breeding. Giant companies like Seminis make a cross, grow out thousands of plants per generation to capture multiple genes for vigor, productivity, and disease resistance. They then cross two of the stable OP's they've created to make a predictable (and commercially lucrative) F1 they can sell to Burpee, Gurney's, Walmart etc. In scientific terms they do it "right". But that presents an interesting conundrum for serious tomato-nerds like us.
Show of hands, who here would rather grow Celebrity, Better Boy and Early Girl rather than Paul Robeson, Cowlick Brandywine (selected small scale from one nursery plant) or Amazon Chocolate?

And that's why not only am I OK with how "The Posse's" going about tomato breeding, but am an enthusiastic participant. Maybe the end result's not as good as it could have been, who knows? But we're having fun, getting our hands dirty, and eating things that we had enough passion not only to grow, but to create. And isn't that kind of the point?

To air all my tomato breeding dirty laundry: This year I'm growing out 106 F1's of my own creation of which I'll grow 3 plants each in three different locations. I'm also growing out 23 different F2, F3, and F4 lines (mostly mine but a few for friends) of which I'll be growing between 15 and 25 plants per line myself. I'll also have gardening buddies both locally and around the country growing another 10 to 20 plants (total) per cross. This is hardly perfect, and we are unlikely to see EVERY potential segregate, but we'll hopefully see some pretty darn good ones and carry on from there. In the mean time I'll be paying real close attention to all those F1's and in the fall I'll be offering free F2 seed from those that show potential here and at other forums to anyone who wants them. All in, between a bunch of people we still probably won't do it "right", but we'll probably find some cool new tomatoes,revel in the miracle of genetic diversity, and have a good time doing it.

If that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, that's cool. There's literally thousands of great OP's out there looking for a home. And you'll always know what you're going to get. But I'd rather find surprise instability than grow boring tomatoes.

[carolyn137]

Interesting post Paddy.

I was up late, so got up late and am now going to have breakfast and read the AM paper. But first, while at the site I'll take a look around before I leave.

Then I have to continue on the assignments of varieties for the folks who do seed production for me, some choose their own off my list of new vareities, others ask me to choose for them, since two are in the south and need seeds now as opposed to those not in the south.

Then I'll answer the specific questions you posed to me, then I'll make some comments about several things that you wrote.

Carolyn