Fermenting.

[NarnianGarden]

Thank you, oakley.
Yes, fermentation should naturally be safe. One can quickly see (and smell) if something in the process isn't going right (sauerkraut especially).
As to water baths vs canning jam without it, actually a hot water bath / pressure coker may encourage the botulism bacteria (so one has to be careful with the time). Normal cooking destroys all such microbes and when the jam is ladled into sterile containers there is not much room for them. (storage in a cold cellar/fridge)

I did check with my 80 something Mom who has used both hot water bath method and the 'common' boiling method when making berry preserves.. I do trust her experience plus my own

[velikipop]

Originally Posted by oakley

I think, but do correct me if I am wrong, this thread was intended for fermenting. To share
and learn.

Our ancestors, globally, have been salt curing, dry curing, and fermenting for centuries,
before recorded history. Without incident.

Fermenting for eventual canning is completely different by miles. Canning, heat treating, is
just a couple hundred years young. The NCHFP has not a clue about natural fermentation.
They are supplying information for 'safe' canning of fermentations. Very different game.

Natural fermentation has thousands of variations. You can discover many ways to ferment
depending on taste and preference. Once you understand the fermentation process, you can
experiment. Fermentation naturally is never meant to be bottled, jared, or canned by any
heat method. No such thing as 'recommended safe practices' for natural ferments.

I do not heat treat ever. Raw, whole fresh foods, quick pickle, or ferment. We just do not
care for canned, heat treated foods. Not salsa, beans, or really any processed foods.
Canning is processed.

Worth does not need defending but he does what we do and DOES know what he is doing.

Exhausting to try and explain to those so unfamiliar with natural wild ferments.

All cultures have a harvest period of time, a processing for fermenting, then a period of time
in cooler storage or cellars. Above 85 or there about, you may be destroying the balance of
good bacteria. Not at all dangerous because it is obvious. We all have refrigeration so that
keeps the wild ferments active and safe. A hot climate has AC. Cooler climates have root
cellars. Or basements.

All issues with illness is un-safe canning, heat processing. Not natural fermentations.

Thanks for that, that is what I also understood from the several credible sources I have been consulting on fermentation. Canning pickled veggies is an entirely different process.

[clkeiper]

Originally Posted by oakley

I think, but do correct me if I am wrong, this thread was intended for fermenting. To share
and learn.

Our ancestors, globally, have been salt curing, dry curing, and fermenting for centuries,
before recorded history. Without incident.

Fermenting for eventual canning is completely different by miles. Canning, heat treating, is
just a couple hundred years young. The NCHFP has not a clue about natural fermentation.
They are supplying information for 'safe' canning of fermentations. Very different game.

Natural fermentation has thousands of variations. You can discover many ways to ferment
depending on taste and preference. Once you understand the fermentation process, you can
experiment. Fermentation naturally is never meant to be bottled, jared, or canned by any
heat method. No such thing as 'recommended safe practices' for natural ferments.

I do not heat treat ever. Raw, whole fresh foods, quick pickle, or ferment. We just do not
care for canned, heat treated foods. Not salsa, beans, or really any processed foods.
Canning is processed.

Worth does not need defending but he does what we do and DOES know what he is doing.

Exhausting to try and explain to those so unfamiliar with natural wild ferments.

All cultures have a harvest period of time, a processing for fermenting, then a period of time
in cooler storage or cellars. Above 85 or there about, you may be destroying the balance of
good bacteria. Not at all dangerous because it is obvious. We all have refrigeration so that
keeps the wild ferments active and safe. A hot climate has AC. Cooler climates have root
cellars. Or basements.

All issues with illness is un-safe canning, heat processing. Not natural fermentations.

ahh, yes fermentation! thanks for reminding us that this thread is about fermentation and not CANNING. getting off topic and admonishing posters about something that doesn't apply is making many of us not participate in anything.

[imp]

Originally Posted by Worth1

If I do anything I hot water bath it after a good simmer if I give to some one else.
Other than that nothing but refrigerate.
You can treat it like ketchup or any other hot sauce if you want which I never put in the refrigerator.
I even keep a bottle in my truck.
I can assure you it is far more acidic than need be.
The ferment alone does that.
Fermented sauerkraut is around a pH of 3.
This gives me an idea of fermented salsa.

Worth

I'm the one who asked how worth preserved the salsa/hot sauce and he answered. Canning CAN be part of fermentation as well as to preserve other foods, too. And being careful and safe in either fermentation or canning is important.

[oakley]

I don't post any cooking or fermenting here after a personal trial run because of the odd
stabbing/bickering. Others stopped posting as well. I went back to the beginning when many
shared and posted recipes. I've taken time out of my day to post a recipe and get...
"I hate those slimy things"....(referring to tomatillos) ....my cooking forum deletes those
unnecessary posts within 24 hours being unsavory and flippant. And rude.

I'm her for the love of tomatoes so that is my focus/interest on T'Ville.

I'm on another delightful/respectful forum for ferments and cooking. I also have co-workers
and close friends that ferment 24/7 365 days a year like we do. I have plenty of enthusiastic
comrades to share successes with.

[imp]

None of my posts in the last 3 pages have been rude, unsavory or flippant, nor have Barb's been so, either.



It has been posted that canning a thickened sauce is against all scientific advice given out by the NCFHC.

[velikipop]

Originally Posted by imp

None of my posts in the last 3 pages have been rude, unsavory or flippant, nor have Barb's been so, either.



It has been posted that canning a thickened sauce is against all scientific advice given out by the NCFHC.

I think that your advice about adding thickeners to fermented food is valid. It would seem logical that this would change the chemistry.

Alex

[Worth1]

The amount of gum I use is to keep it from separating not thicken.
Every hot suace maker puts it in the stuff and as I said before they use the gum in everything.

This is my last post about it.
Worth

[imp]

Originally Posted by Worth1

The amount of gum I use is to keep it from separating not thicken.
Every hot suace maker puts it in the stuff and as I said before they use the gum in everything.

This is my last post about it.
Worth

Commercial /industrial canning is vastly different than what can be done at home safely. Because some things can be canned up or with other ingredients in commercial canning systems does not mean it can be done at home safely.



Stopping sauce from separating by adding gums or other things, is thickening it, to various degrees. What one chooses to do, following accepted safety guidelines or not, depends on the person and the risks they choose to take with themselves, but if they share that food with others and do not follow accepted guidelines, they expose them to risks.

[coronabarb]

Oakley, I generally have a hands off approach here unless it gets out of hand. I too do not like the flippant remarks. If someone likes tomatillos and another person doesn't, it would be nice to pass that post by instead of declare how icky it is. We all have different taste buds and perceive foods in a different way. Lots of different ways to enjoy food. The old folks around here in Oregon really love their sauerkraut. They either buy or grow lots of cabbage and make lots of sauerkraut, then can it. I would guess that they are enjoying it as a food and are not looking at it as a source of probiotics, etc. since the heat processing is going to destroy some of the good stuff. To each their own!

Let's move on.

[nbardo]

The whole point is moot anyway. Worth said he keeps it in the fridge. The bacteria that produces botulinum toxin does not actively reproduce at temps above 50F. So you dont need to water bath or pressure can it. You could keep it in one of those flip-top bail canisters instead of a mason jar if you wanted.


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[coronabarb]

I think you mean below 50F, nbardo.

[nbardo]

Originally Posted by coronabarb

I think you mean below 50F, nbardo.

Haha yes thanks for catching that!


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[recruiterg]

Does anyone do lacto fermented beets? Can you share your recipe?

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by recruiterg

Does anyone do lacto fermented beets? Can you share your recipe?

I tried fermented turnips and they sucked.
All you need to do is slice the beets and use about two to three tablespoons of canning salt to a quart of good water.

Worth