Drip Tape Irrigation

[Heritage]

I just went back and caught up with posts in this thread.

It looks like you are using an EZ-FLO injector? I'm not familiar with this brand of injector but it sounds like it should work, at least better than it does. Years ago I used a similar system but a different brand, I don't remember the specifics of dilution or rates. I had to go with a Dosmatic type because I also do inline chemigation and need the accuracy.

I still don't understand the 60# pressure requirement.

If you can't get it to work send it back.

Steve

[JackE]

Hi Steve -

Yes, it's an EZ-Flow. I wanted to try a smaller one at first before spending major bucks. It's not their cheapest one and seems to be of decent quality. It's rated up to 100# of pressure - think it's a unit that they use mostly through sprinkler systems for large areas of turf - golf courses, etc. I didn't realize that until it arrived and I read the book. I won't send it back. Probably my fault for buying the wrong one - and the box is all tore-up, etc. It was only $110 bucks.

It ran wide open for 5 hours before it ran clear in the fertilizer tube. The tank was half full (3# of product), installed on the well side of the regulator and filter with 60# of pressure. The flow rate was about 8/GPM - 480 GPH!. The regulator was set at 12#. Total run was 1200 ft of hi-flow drip tape with 8" emitters.


How long would it take your Dosatron, set at max, to empty 3# of fert in those circumstances, Steve? This one pumped nearly 5K gals of water on a little 5000 sq ft, plot! That would probably be right for lawns under sprinklers. I bought the wrong one, that's all. Happens whenever I try to save a buck - never fails!

Jack

[Heritage]

Jack,

It sounds like the EZ-Flo injects at too high a ratio for your purposes. Maybe it will be useful when your pond fills up and you are watering with a larger flow? Although, it doesn't make sense that you have to use 5000 gals of water to inject 3#s of fert. Something is wrong, I think. I don't know when that ratio would ever be useful. However, I see that type injector being used in avocado groves around here so I think I'm missing something or not understanding your problem.

My Dosmatic goes as low as 40:1 so if I dissolved 3# of fert in 3 gallons of water it would take 40 x 3, or 120, gallons of irrigation water to dispense the entire mixture.

The main problem with a Dosmatic type injector is it has a lot of moving parts and you need to install a rebuild kit every few years. And, you have to keep the water clean and run clean water through them after each use. Much higher maintenance than a EZ-Flo type.

Otherwise, how are you plants doing. When can I order sugar snap peas?

[JackE]

Steve -

I found the problem - now I know how our poor Governor Perry must have felt the other night!
I just opened the tank and there were large pieces of a dead leaves in there. I't obvious that the leaves were restricting the little screen on the suction tube, reducing the flow of fertilizer by a very substantial number!

I should have thought of that - I have to frequently clean out the filter on the tractor sprayer - always a lot of leaves, grass and stuff in there.

What happens is that the fertilizer gets rock hard in the bag in just a couple months in this humid climate. We have to cut the bag off the solid block of fert and put it in a big tub, and then beat it with the end of a 2X4 until it's usable. Obviously, a lot of junk is going to get in there. It was never a problem with the sprayer - big filter - but it just about shut-down this little unit! I'm going to have to keep that fertilizer clean, very clean, which may be a major problem - time consuming!

We've actually had it get so hard that we had to use a chisel and hammer to break it into pieces that would fit into the fill opening on the sprayer. I may have to dilute this with water in a bucket and then strain it into the injector tank. It dissolves quickly, no matter how hard it is.

Al the plants are doing well, now that we have some water. We plant Sugar Snaps around Christmas and they mature in April. I would think you could plant them anytime in that fantastic climate y'all have. I was stationed in San Diego in the service - springtime year-round.

Jack

PS _ Gov Perry is embarrassing us, but he's not as dumb as he seems. He's just out of his comfortable, chummy, good ol' boy environment. The sooner he gets back on the job in Austin the better for all of us! I have met him personally several times - nice guy and an honest to goodness, real Texas cowboy, raised on a cattle ranch near Paint Creek, TX. Maybe it's time to bo back to the ranch, Rick.

[moon1234]

Originally Posted by JackE

Moon-

What's the prilled fertilizer you use? I checked with our supplier and the only prilled soluble they handle is 46% urea.

JAck

I used Yara Liva Cal Nitrate this year. http://www.canitratedirect.com/Calcinit%20PDS.pdf

That was prilled. I got it from Irrigation Mart. I ordered 250lbs of it. It came on a pallet along with the rest of my stuff. I also order Yara's potassium nitrate. That was crystals. Not what I wanted, but I waited too long in the season. I also wanted Potassium Nitrate that had some free nitrogen in it, but what I got was straight K.

I used champion Potassium Nitrate last year, and I liked it a lot better. It is almost a perfect ratio when you are feeding young melons.

[moon1234]

Originally Posted by JackE

Steve -

I found the problem - now I know how our poor Governor Perry must have felt the other night!
I just opened the tank and there were large pieces of a dead leaves in there. I't obvious that the leaves were restricting the little screen on the suction tube, reducing the flow of fertilizer by a very substantial number!

I should have thought of that - I have to frequently clean out the filter on the tractor sprayer - always a lot of leaves, grass and stuff in there.

What happens is that the fertilizer gets rock hard in the bag in just a couple months in this humid climate. We have to cut the bag off the solid block of fert and put it in a big tub, and then beat it with the end of a 2X4 until it's usable. Obviously, a lot of junk is going to get in there. It was never a problem with the sprayer - big filter - but it just about shut-down this little unit! I'm going to have to keep that fertilizer clean, very clean, which may be a major problem - time consuming!

We've actually had it get so hard that we had to use a chisel and hammer to break it into pieces that would fit into the fill opening on the sprayer. I may have to dilute this with water in a bucket and then strain it into the injector tank. It dissolves quickly, no matter how hard it is.

Al the plants are doing well, now that we have some water. We plant Sugar Snaps around Christmas and they mature in April. I would think you could plant them anytime in that fantastic climate y'all have. I was stationed in San Diego in the service - springtime year-round.

Jack

PS _ Gov Perry is embarrassing us, but he's not as dumb as he seems. He's just out of his comfortable, chummy, good ol' boy environment. The sooner he gets back on the job in Austin the better for all of us! I have met him personally several times - nice guy and an honest to goodness, real Texas cowboy, raised on a cattle ranch near Paint Creek, TX. Maybe it's time to bo back to the ranch, Rick.

Don't get too upset at the injector. Crap in the tank can be a problem for a lot of people. When it is set on the fastest ratio the hose-bib style EZ-Flo's mix at a rate of 100:1. If you put in 3 gallons of liquid fert and set the mix ratio to fast, the tank should be empty after 300 gallons.

All of the EZ-Flo's that I have seen have a chart right on the tank that tells the mix ratio of the knob on the cap. Did your's not come with this?

[JackE]

It just has a dial - slow, med1, med2 and fast. I ran it again today on fast - no problem. The color in the tube was real dark blue and the other day it was real pale blue - that should've told me sumthin' LOL

I have 300# of Yara calcium nitrate on hand now, left-over from last year. It's crystals, though, greenhouse grade, and it hardens too - but nowhere near as bad as the Peters. I won't be doing tomatoes next year - we have three growers - and I'll do the sweet corn, peppers, cukes and squash in 2012. IF we have enough water, that is! This well won't make enough water for the corn - which takes two acres. We're hoping the lake will refill.

The only prilled product I use is the Champ Copper Hydroxide. I'd sure like to get some prilled 20-10-20! I'm gonna use the calcium nitrate to sidedress the corn - need to get rid of it.

Thanks again to you, Steve, Tracy and the others who have been so helpful during this installation process.

Jack

Jack

[JackE]

Moon, did you have that pallet of stuff shipped from Louisiana to Wisconson? The freight must have been horrendous! Maybe you can find a wholesale greenhouse supplier within driving distance. We buy from Kinney Bonded Warehouse in Tyler Texas - Yara cal nitrate was about $30/50# bag last order. It's a 200 mile roundtrip, but a lot cheaper than paying freight.

We have found that on soluble products, greenhouse/nursery suppliers will have the best prices by far. Don't pay any attention to the published catalog prices - the actual price will be close to half that if you buy in reasonable quantity (and that's why we have hard fertilizer - buy too much to get the price!)


Jack

[moon1234]

I didn't really have a choice. I had 600' of 1" LDPE pipe, 2 Rolls of Dripe Tape, Misc Ends, Valves, etc. By the time I was done with all that it was cheaper to do freight. It was $105 flat rate for a pallet from LA to WI. Once I realized that I asked what costs were on his fert. It was HALF price compared to BFG and Carlin Sales, which are the two biggest greenhouse suppliers in WI.

BFG and Carlin wanted $72/bag for Potassium Nitrate. Irrigation Mart was $35. When I told them this they didn't seem to care. Even the Super Rainbow Plus 13-13-13 was cheaper compared to the local ag supply store. $20 compared to $37. I called FS, CPS and another local supplier my father uses on his 120 acres of grains. NONE of them were as cheap as Irrigation Mart unless I bought 1000 or more pounds. That was only for Urea though.

I am not sure why we get raked over the coals by the local suppliers. On the flipside my gallon jug of Pyganic Insecticide (Organic) was $119. That was almost $80 cheaper than any place online.

The response I got from BFG and Carlin is that they have very few requests for PN or CN up here. I guess most people don't inject fert up here and the greenhouses don't use it.

[JackE]

That's a lot less freight than I would have thought.

I have heard horror stories about CN plugging-up the drip tape, but they say it's okay as long as you use greenhouse grade. I've noticed that it doesn't dissolve as thoroughly as regular fertilzer - always some residues left in the bottom. I've thought maybe I would pre-dissolve it and strain it into the injector. However, I've never noticed any CN residues when I clean-out the sprayer tank, so I guess it all does dissolve okay.

Also, if I mix it with any ammonium-based nitrogen it will form a "precipitate" - white stuff that looks and feels like cottage cheese. I would think that stuff would really mess-up the emitters. I never seen any of that in the sprayer filter either - only in the tank itself - so it must be going through the screen.

As I am sure you are aware, calcium nitrate will raise the pH of the soil. With continued use it can make the soil too alkaline, in which case we simply run ammonium sulfate for awhile instead, and that quickly brings it right back down to the 6.5 we prefer. In moderation, it helps prevent acid build-up from the fertilizers.

Some crops, like spinach, prefer a high pH and the CN is valuable there. After spinach harvest, the soil will often test at 7.5 or higher - ammonuium sulfate brings it down, but our sandy soil is naturally acidic and usually corrects itself after tillage.

We first started using it to fight BER (blossom end rot) in tomatoes. It's a very good fertilizer for tomatoes.

Jack

[JackE]

Interesting that you use an expensive OMRI approved insecticide, since you're obviously not an organic grower.

Does that Pyganic work better than synthetic, low-toxicity pyrethroids like Permethrin? Martin's 10% Permethrin cost $50/gal and mixes at 1/2 oz./gal of water - and it's also 0 DHI on melons, just like the costly OMRI stuff, at a fraction of the cost (a $50 gal of Per makes 250 gals of finished spray and a $120 gal of Pyganic makes about 50 gals).

If it's better, though it may be worth the price. The labels on both products claim to kill aphids, but Permethrin does NOT kill aphids. How about Pyganic on aphids? But since you grow melons you may not have aphid problems. They're a major problem for us on okra and peppers - crops that last into mid summer. Effective insecticides have such a long DHI (14-21 days) that it's hardly worth it to spray that late in the season.

Jack

PS - While doing research on the drip tape project, I noticed that some large farmers inject systemic herbicides through the tape. I thought those systemics were all illegal now - we lost the acephate (Orthene) a few years ago and now the vine borers own the squash LOL.

[JackE]

I got a couple of PMs from home gardeners about squash vine borers, so I'll post my experience with that pervasive pest here.

There is no chemical solution. Systemic acephate is still legal in some countries but not here. Spraying for the moth as she lays eggs is difficult to time right, and spraying the stems, even with something residual (Permethrin), doesn't do it either - not unless you exceed legal concentrations like the guys who grow those giant pumpkins do. But nobody eats those pumpkins - hopefully!

There are various cultural practices and methods (wrapping panty hose around the stems, or coating them with a sticky substance to deter the moth, or keepin Sevin dust on the stems) that may be feasible in a very small garden. I've pretty much tried them all over the years. But what works best for us is to understand the life cycle of the insect and plant accordingly.

Here in East Texas, this species of moth has finshed her breeding and egg laying by mid May. So we just forego early squash and plant it late - it does fine in the summer heat and there are no vine borers at all.

What really amazes me is that you can plant squash someplace where it has never grown before, or at least not in many years, and the vine borers still show-up! They must have some kind of weed that hosts them in the wild - that fragile little moth couldn't travel more than a mile or two! Could she?

Jack

EDIT - I was just sitting here remembering all the many vine borer solutions I heard about and tried over the years - cut a slit in the stem and fish-out the worm worked pretty good except the plant as usually too far gone -- but the one I really got excited about was to inject BT with a hypodermic needle. Trouble with that was, I didn't know where he was in the stem and I'd squirt it behind him. LOL

How 'bout y'all - what works for you? C'mon, it's wintertime and nothin to do but play on the computer. There's no rule that says you have to sell your veggies to post on this forum. Somebody start a new thread about vine borers.

[JackE]

Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

We are now harvesting our first "drip-grown" crops - mustard and turnips. I hope we've become proficient enough to use it properly next year. I wound-up with 5 zones, each with 1000 running feet of tape each. The little 2" well will handle only one zone at a time.

Compared to our 4" submersible in the lake, this well is an energy hog. Unlike our house well, which is the same set-up, this one runs constantly for hours on end. Our irrigation is on a separate electrical service (so we know how much to charge the project) and the well only ran a couple hours a day on these fall-planted greens - and only one zone - and it burned 247KW ($34.58!!) I fear that watering all five zones next summer, which, under drought conditions like last year will probably require nearly 24/7 operation, the cost will be prohibitive. Hopefully, our lake will be back up next year - I can filter, regulate and plumb the submersible right into the drip system, in addition to running sprinklers at the same time (it puts out 3600GPH and only burns a few amps of power).

We tried burying the tape at different depths and leaving it on the surface. All things considered, I think running it on top and moving it to cultivate will be best. The one thing I really hate about the system, though, is all that snaking around when it expands and contracts. We have several 100ft rows of tiny carrot plants and the tape is damaging them as it moves back and forth all the time! I made some u-shaped pins with barb wire fence stays and placed them every five feet and the darn stuff STILL wanders! Putting a little dirt every few feet didn't even slow it down LOL.

Jack

PS - Our two years of clean fallow to control nematodes on one infested acre did NOT work! There was RKN damage on the greens which were planted in Sept while the soil was still warm. I am VERY disappointed.

[moon1234]

Originally Posted by JackE

Interesting that you use an expensive OMRI approved insecticide, since you're obviously not an organic grower.

Does that Pyganic work better than synthetic, low-toxicity pyrethroids like Permethrin? Martin's 10% Permethrin cost $50/gal and mixes at 1/2 oz./gal of water - and it's also 0 DHI on melons, just like the costly OMRI stuff, at a fraction of the cost (a $50 gal of Per makes 250 gals of finished spray and a $120 gal of Pyganic makes about 50 gals).

If it's better, though it may be worth the price. The labels on both products claim to kill aphids, but Permethrin does NOT kill aphids. How about Pyganic on aphids? But since you grow melons you may not have aphid problems. They're a major problem for us on okra and peppers - crops that last into mid summer. Effective insecticides have such a long DHI (14-21 days) that it's hardly worth it to spray that late in the season.

Jack

PS - While doing research on the drip tape project, I noticed that some large farmers inject systemic herbicides through the tape. I thought those systemics were all illegal now - we lost the acephate (Orthene) a few years ago and now the vine borers own the squash LOL.

I got the Pyganic because it was the only thing I could legally spray on the Raspberries that had a 0-day PHI. The japanese beetles were destroying the raspberrys (defoliating) very quickly. I also have customers that ASK what pesticides I use. If they are not OMRI listed many will walk away, especially with the berries. I also like the idea of the short PHI and that Pyganic is essentially an essential oil extract, breaks down completly in the soil and is a reduced risk for the applicator.

I used it on my melons as well to controll cucumber beetles. I had both striped, spotted and Squash bugs. It killed them all quite well, but the problem with these types of pests is that they fly in from great distances so control is limited to only a few days.

For any of the lepidopteran problems I rotated with BT, Spinosad and Pyganic. The BT and Spinosad kill the little worms dead every time. BT with also kill the vine boreres, but you need to time it properly. I only use plastic mulch as well and that deters them to a degree.

My biggest problem this year was bacterial diseases which were vectored from the cucumber beetles. I am not bug enough to justify a pulled sprayer yet so I was schlepping a 3 gallon tank around 1.5 acres. My father bought me a hudson backpack sprayer for my birthday (he is funny sometimes). I returned it and am going to buy a Dramm battery powered backpack for next year. My arm is sort just thinking about all of the pumping I did.

On the sweet corn my father grows he uses warrior or silencer. It usally works well for him. He had a few escapes this year. I suggested he try BT on a few rows of corn. He was reluctant, but it did work for him.

The think with Pyganic is that is unlikely to have resistance show up anytime soon. Most synthetics target a specific chemical pathway. Once a pest mutates to be tolerant to that pathway then the insecticide is no good. Pyganic, being an extract of a flower, acts on many different chemical pathways at once. This makes it unlikely that a bug will become resistant unless it is not rotated properly.

The only downside to Pyganic is that it does not have an inhibitor added into it to prevent an insect from being able to clear the insecticide. Pyganic is also sold as a commercial spray with piprinol butoxide added. This prevents or greatly slows a bugs ability to clear the pesticide. This only means that you need to directly hit the bugs with a good dose of Pyganic to kill them. I found that when spraying Pyganic in melons, you need to move slowly and hit as large of an area as possible before moving or the beetles will just fly away before being hit with the spray. If they get hit, they are dead.

Pyganic is one of the very few pesticides allowed to be sprayed in dairy barns for the control of flys and other insects. It even is listed for direct application to animals and grains. I feel that this gives it a margin of safety for the human applying it that the synthetics can not offer. I wouldn't drink it or want it on my clothes, but I feel the benefit offsets the higher cost.

I have my children (6 of them) that like to help pick fruits and veggies. I don't want to worry about PHI and residual with them running to fields when they are hungry. BT, Spinosad, Pyganic, Potassium Bicarb and the occasional copper (CuEva) are what I use. I only break down and use synthetics (Warrier, Silencer, Poast, Select, Glyphosate) when I absolutely have no other choice. I explain this to my customers when they ask and they appreciate this.

ALL of the other growers at market are either growing GMO varieties or are full conventional. I charge more than all of them at market and still outsell them all on Melons. Most though are growing from seed purchased from Jungs, Gurneys, etc. They are growing varieties that are very old, but are inexpensive.

[moon1234]

Originally Posted by JackE

Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

We are now harvesting our first "drip-grown" crops - mustard and turnips. I hope we've become proficient enough to use it properly next year. I wound-up with 5 zones, each with 1000 running feet of tape each. The little 2" well will handle only one zone at a time.

Compared to our 4" submersible in the lake, this well is an energy hog. Unlike our house well, which is the same set-up, this one runs constantly for hours on end. Our irrigation is on a separate electrical service (so we know how much to charge the project) and the well only ran a couple hours a day on these fall-planted greens - and only one zone - and it burned 247KW ($34.58!!) I fear that watering all five zones next summer, which, under drought conditions like last year will probably require nearly 24/7 operation, the cost will be prohibitive. Hopefully, our lake will be back up next year - I can filter, regulate and plumb the submersible right into the drip system, in addition to running sprinklers at the same time (it puts out 3600GPH and only burns a few amps of power).

We tried burying the tape at different depths and leaving it on the surface. All things considered, I think running it on top and moving it to cultivate will be best. The one thing I really hate about the system, though, is all that snaking around when it expands and contracts. We have several 100ft rows of tiny carrot plants and the tape is damaging them as it moves back and forth all the time! I made some u-shaped pins with barb wire fence stays and placed them every five feet and the darn stuff STILL wanders! Putting a little dirt every few feet didn't even slow it down LOL.

Jack

PS - Our two years of clean fallow to control nematodes on one infested acre did NOT work! There was RKN damage on the greens which were planted in Sept while the soil was still warm. I am VERY disappointed.

I use my mulch layer without mulch to create flat beds with drip tape layed a few inches deep. I can them plant on top of this for things like carrots, radish, lettuce etc. The tape does not move and the soil gets properly wetted. I only put drip tape on the surface for sweet corn after canopy, bush beans and some flowers. All else is buried by the layer either with or without plastic.

Your little well may be a problem. It just depends on your return on investment. A small amount of carrots/radishes will not usually pay off as much as a smaller amount of melons, tomatoes, etc. when drip irrigating. I have a 30GPM pump, but don't use near that much so the pump cycles a lot. MOST new pumps have a set PSI and they run continously and vary the amount of water they delivery up to the max rated for the pump. This is easier on the pump and usually more energy efficient.

I estimate I used around 130-150 thousand gallons of water last year, all pumped from a well. I don't like using surface water. Contamination problems can be an issue, etc. I was reading the GAP certification stuff and using surface waters for irrigation gets you dings unless you have a lot of filtration, testing, etc. For tested well water it is just a check off and on to the next point.