Carolyn's 2014 Germination Reports

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by greyghost

Just wanted to say I was a bit concerned about some of the germination
results of the Granny's Heart variety in Carolyn's offer. I haven't regrown it
since '12---just too many new things to try out. I did plant 10 seeds last
Thursday; 9 have germinated-just at room temp. in the kitchen so, generally,
I would expect at least some germination of this variety.

I only kept back 12 seeds so I'm not able to send anyone seeds until the end of summer but I will put at least 2 of these in the garden and will save seeds for
anyone who wants them.

I wish I had thought to request some Dester '12 and/or Granny's from Carolyn's
seed offer this spring---that would have been a good opportunity to see the
effect mailing has on these seeds at least to this address.

I'm suspecting that seeds may be seeing some level of damage during mailing;
after that, I suspect some seeds may have seen high temperatures before
fermentation, etc. or other issues when sowing such as too high a temp. on
a heat mat (I've had this happen). I doubt we'll never have a good understanding of what the germination results are telling us. I also think
that in any given envelope, you may have some seeds taking the brunt of
roller pressure and protecting others from damage so that mailing damage
is not uniform for seeds in the same envelope causing people to suspect
one variety wasn't viable.

I do sometimes see opaque spots on ziplocks I've gotten through the mail. On
occasion, a vendor may send a few packs in an envelope with just a receipt.
Sometimes these seeds are difficult to germinate; other times, not so much
so it's hard to draw definite conclusions.

In Carolyn's case, she's mailing quite a few varieties on just one stamp.
If padding is increased, postage goes up, too. At that point, it's hard
to even predict what postage might be making a tedious task even more
complicated. I guess I feel that even with a few disappointments, a lot
people are getting quite a few new varieties that eventually will become
easier to find.

I guess the bigger issue is for Carolyn to make a determination if seeds are
still viable by watching for patterns. I know it's frustrating when you have to
report 0 germination, especially if you usually experience 100% on your own seed. Believe me, I've been there!! I'm still lusting for a Dutka's Pink seedling.
And, honestly, I feel a bit embarrassed if I don't get any germination, especially
if someone else does, but I think there are just too many things that can cause
lack of viability. I'm still blaming the mail for not having any Dutka's!

All good points Darleen, but let me remind you that several years ago when the roller issue became known and photos posted here with damaged seeds, I sent seeds of Orange Minsk, padded with a folded over napkin to several different persons and places and also sent the same seeds with no padding to the same persons, and the results showed that my padding was important and the germination reports showed that.

I've used the same padding since then and also insist on using #1 coin envelopes instead of plastic ziplok bags, which quite honestly I hate.

After the seeds I'm sending are picked up here from home and taken to that large USPS distribution Center in Albany, I have no way of knowing about what happens to them.

But when I do see some getting 0 % percent germination with a variety and someone else getting much better germination with the same variety, I know the seeds were viable as mailed by me.

And Granny's Heart is an example. I still have lots of those seeds as I noted above and expect to offer them in my next offer.

Lots and lots and lots of variables, as you pointed out.

And for sure I know that since until the summer of 2004 I was growing many hundreds of plants and varieties and saving all of my own seed, mostly for my SSE listings, but at the time I was also making large seed offers at Garden Web/

And when I grew more plants for new seed stock using my saved seed, germination was excellent but the same thing happened at GW with my saved seeds, as in germination from 0 % to close to 100% with the same variety.

So I can't see anything more that I can do from my end.

For participants in my seed offer I sent a max of 6,padded and ask for just one stamp, which is enough but there were other places I sent close to 12 and, two forever stamps, they went in a large envelope with padding. And prior to that I sent LOTS of varieties in padded mailers. And still when sending out of the US, as You know, I pay postage and put an insane amount of postage on those since I can't get to the PO and I don't want to bother my mail lady with money and all that, although she does get my stamps for me.

Reinhard in Germany recently asked me to NOT send him seed in a padded mailer since it delayed his receipt of them too late to even put out this summer. And no, no green customs labels are needed for Germany, but their customs agents are very observant.

Spoiler Alert.

This year is the last time I'm listing anything with SSE.

And there will be a new person who will be in charge of my annual seed offer here for 2016. I will still go with my mission of obtaining varieties that will hopefully be new to all, with a few others tucked in. I've made many wonderful contacts from many countries and folks here at Tville have also donated seeds, thank you Darleen. We have to work out the details but there's plenty of time for that.

I've done this long enough and you have no idea of the PM's and e-mails I got this year asking where their seeds were, etc., I go as fast as I can, but for some it just isn't fast enought. And for some it will never be fast enough.

In earlier years this never happened, but now with over 14,000 members at Tville, things are a bit different.

Carolyn

[Barbee]

Just thought you all might like to see what roller damage can do to seeds. This padded mailer came to me from Canada

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by greyghost

Just wanted to say I was a bit concerned about some of the germination results of the Granny's Heart variety in Carolyn's offer. . . .

As far as I know . . . and, while I could have missed something, I have been watching, there have only been two reports on Granny's Heart 2012 -- one from me, zero germination from eight seeds and several posts from MrsJustice, cumulatively reporting five seeds that germinated, but were accidentally destroyed and three planted later that didn't germinate (but the best looking seeds had been selected for the first planting).

That's too small a data sample to have any significance, except that the seeds were clearly not generally bad.

So many find that seeds that have traveled through the mail, especially in small quantities, have, overall poorer performance than other seeds under the same conditions, that I feel considerable confidence that mailing stress is a major factor in reduction of seed performance -- and I suspect that temperature, scanning, rollers, and who-knows-what may all play a role.

In addition to widespread anecdotal accounts of this observation, relevant data, I think, is that I got Sweet Ozark Orange both from Carolyn and from Sam this year. Same seed source, packed similarly, mailed in the same size SASE from me, arrived here the same day, treated exactly the same, planted the same, planting cups sat next to one another in the tray. No use of heat pads or other elements that could have varied conditions between cups. 5 of 7 of the seeds from Carolyn germinated, 0 of 10 of the seeds from Sam. There really isn't any obvious difference except the path they traveled in the mail.

I'm particularly suspicious of heat differences. Allegedly climate controlled mail trucks notwithstanding, it seems likely to me that some mail is exposed to sufficient heat in transport to significantly reduce viability of seeds. A bag of mail could easily lay against a hot surface or in a sunny spot, for example, that would not expose it to enough heat to create any danger of fire or other damage observed by the post office, but would involve enough heat to impair the viability of seeds. And it's not at all hard to imagine situations where seed packets in the same envelope could be differently affected.

"Scanning" could be similar -- it's certainly possible that mail is exposed to different sorts and degrees of "scanning" at various points in its travels which might also impair, but not completely destroy, viability of seeds.

It doesn't seem to me that it calls for any particular action. When Carolyn's urging that all seeds be planted is followed, most of the time one or more plants of most varieties make it to productivity, and are able to produce seeds that, not having to deal with travel stress, can produce plants that grow like jungle weeds.

[carolyn137]

Here is the germination thread from April of last year:

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...rolyn%27s+2013

And here are the reports for granny's Heart:

post 14, GH ( 2011) 4/5

57, 1/5 , no date

78, GH ( 2011), 4/20

85, GH by JLJ, 2/8, updated to 3/8, updated to 4/8

And well worth reading JLJ's posts # 78 and especially 85.

Two points,

First, there are varieties I offered last year that were deleted from this year's offer b'c of low germination or I didn't have enough seeds left.

Second, you'll see the same pattern of someone who got 90=100 % germination for a variety while someone else got none for the same variety.

We've talked abouit many variables that could be at work with this kind of variability. and I do think, based on all the seed offers I've made in the past, that for any one person it can be several variables at work in a given season.

As Yogi Berra once said, deja vue ( or is it just vu) all over again.

Carolyn

[greyghost]

Actually, even though I referenced Granny's Heart (and did recheck germination),
I was speaking in more general terms--really not defensively as though it may have sounded like that. I guess that's part of the problem when speaking through e-mails rather than face-to-face.

Nor was I suggesting that Carolyn do anything other than what she already does.
Lord knows, that's more than enough already, especially for 2 stamps.

I've noticed a trend where people are starting to say they had better
germination on other seeds when they experience lower or non germination
on seeds from Carolyn's offer.

If it's thought that there's minimal damage going through the mail, that leaves viability of the seeds or operator error. I still feel, and I think many others
feel the same, that an exposure to something harmful during mailing is probably
the cause of most of the lower than expected germination that we see.

And no, I'm not suggesting that any action be taken, I'm just suggesting that
I feel in most cases, something has happened during mailing rather than
due to the skill of the grower. I'm sure that happens too and it's probably
apparent when the rest of the seeds they sow perform poorly.

And I feel the same way you do, it's a great way to get new varieties into
the mainstream and if you don't have luck one year, perhaps you will another.

[iowabirdie]

Germination results:
Orange Minsk Heart (2012) 6/12
Brazilian Giant (2013) 4/8
Burning Spear 2011 8/11
Sweet Ozark Orange 2013 3/7
Honey Giant (2012) 0/8
Sakharnyi Slon (2013) 4/7

Really a very late spring here but today is beautiful and the daffodils are blooming. Thanks again for the seeds!
Robin

[MrBig46]

I got the seeds (about 20 varieties of tomatoes) from Tania and Heritage in envelopes with a napkin folded over. No seeds were not crushed, germination higher than 50% (at all)! For me, the best way to send tomato seeds.
Vladimír

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MrBig46

I got the seeds (about 20 varieties of tomatoes) from Tania and Heritage in envelopes with a napkin folded over. No seeds were not crushed, germination higher than 50% (at all)! For me, the best way to send tomato seeds.
Vladimír

I agree Vladimir about the folded over paper napkin. I switched to doing that back in 2008 after doing those tests with Orange Minsk sending out padded and nonpadded seeds to the same person at the same time.

And seeds sent to me for my seed offer are almost always sent the same way. A few use small padded mailers since they are usually sending just one or a few more, and I have a box of those same small padded mailers as well. And many of them are coming from Europe and beyond. But quite a few of the new variety seeds sent to me had no padding at all.

I'm getting germination reports back now both from my regular seed producers as well as the SOS seed producers who answered my call, and since each person has their own varieties, and only one duplication, which I did deliberately, no way right now to make comparisons.

But a week ago yesterday Rob, who is local,picked up 12 varieties from me, which will be duplicates of some of the new ones, so we shall see.

When folks post that they didn't get good germination with the seeds I sent out and then put up a long list of ones where they got close to 100% with others, that's great, I think, but I have no idea of how those seeds were packed.

Barbee, as I was strolling through this thread I saw your busted seeds, and noticed that they are squash seeds, not tomato seeds. Years ago I used to send out large seeds such as squash and bean seeds from SSE listings and following what the bean and squash experts did, they were packed in small boxes, if you will, since large seeds are VERY fragile and are the ones most expected to get busted.

Carolyn, where it's still COLD and overcast and rainy, but this year brought a wonderful display of many kinds of daffodils and narcissuses and Freda has brought in huge bouquets to decorate the front room, displacing the pointsettia from Xmas on the coffee table which is still in perfect shape which got displaced for the Easter Lily and hyacinths I must have, and bouquets elsewhere in that huge LV/DR area.

[themarta]

I only got Podarok Fei to try this year.

2 out of 5 seeds germinated. Keeping 1 very healthy plant.

[ParisHumphrey]

Mortgage Lifter (2013) 4/6 germinated

Lucky Cross (2013) 4/6

Dixiewine (2013) 2/6

Lehretomate (2013) 4 /6

Black Magic (2012) 3/6

Serendipity (2011) 6/6

[spacetogrow]

Benissoinante 2/7, in seed starter with milled sphagnum moss on top. Only the 2 germinated.

Thank you again, Carolyn.

[Paul R]

Antho x Serdtse Buivola, F2, 2012, 12 of 15 germinated.

Rancho Solito 2013, 5 of 8 germinated.

Paul R

[Mandy97]

Germination Data (2014):

Ted's Pink Current: 0/8 - 0%
1884 Purple: 0/7 - 0%
Buddy Runyon: 1/5 - 20%
Fresa: 2/6 - 33%
Russian Queen: 1/5 - 20%

Mandy

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by Barbee

Just thought you all might like to see what roller damage can do to seeds. This padded mailer came to me from Canada

That's is Pure Damage I have never seen before. Thanks for sharing that picture with us. I am going to research a way to avoid the Mail Rolling Machines.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Mandy97

Germination Data (2014):

Ted's Pink Current: 0/8 - 0%
1884 Purple: 0/7 - 0%
Buddy Runyon: 1/5 - 20%
Fresa: 2/6 - 33%
Russian Queen: 1/5 - 20%

Mandy

Not so good Mandy.

I didn't offer Russian Queen in this last seed offer, I think the last time was 2-3 years ago.

Two of your 5 were from seeds donated to me from commercial sources.

And I am surprised at the 0 for Ted's Pink Currant since currant seeds germinate quite well and I think others did OK with that one.

All, I can say is that's there's always next year.

But could you share with us how you germinate your seeds, to see if anyone might have some suggestions?

Carolyn