Let's talk about Brandywines

[gssgarden]

Newgardener, it has nothing to do with that. Why can't you understand that???? I don't think I can make it any clearer!!! Good grief!!

[b54red]

Originally Posted by camochef

Ed,
I had nothing to do with Cowlick's Brandywine development, other than naming it to distinguish it from other Brandywines at the time. It was simply a plant I had bought from a local nursery. The owner of which had about a half dozen tomato plants in his greenhouse, all about 31/2-4 foot tall. By the time I realized it was something different than all the other Brandywines I was growing at the time, and really something special, It was much later in the year and when I returned to his nursery in search of more information, I couldn't get much. As he remembered, he bought it from an Amish seed source that listed it as either Brandywine or Pink Brandywine.
Now, I was responsible for sharing seeds from it with many tomato growers on this and other forums, about 7-8 years ago. Mostly all were impressed with its productivity, (as well as its taste and characteristics), and they in turn shared seeds with even more tomato growers worldwide.
It is a great tasting tomato, much more productive than other Brandywines, but quite similar with its thin skin, small core, large size, and delicious taste. After many years of growing Brandywines of all types, I'm eliminating Brandywine-Sudduth's and other Pink Brandywines from my gardens, this coming season. I will still grow Cowlick's Brandywine, Brandywine -Glick's, (From Amishland), and a Red Brandywine P.L. from Homegrown Harvest.
I'm more interested in growing German Johnson-Benton Strain. Both the R.L. and the grafted P.L. version and extremely interested in growing German Johnson-Benton Strain crossed with an unknown Black, It's also P.L. and I suspect it to be crossed with Bear Creek, another Brandywine/Cherokee Purple cross developed by someone else.
I suppose the German Johnson -Benton strain cross is mine and I'm calling that one "Barlow's Best Black" No one else has any seeds for that one...yet. Maybe available after I see how it does this coming season. Then it will be available only to a select few, till it proves itself.
Enjoy!
Camo

Camo I may have the same black from GJ. This past year I had two of my German Johnson plants producing a large black tomato slightly less dark than some but with a flavor that surpassed everything else in the garden. I hope the seed I saved will be true so I can experience that wonderful tomato again.

I grew two each of Sudduth's and Cowlick's side by side for a comparison last spring. They both ripened at the same time with no difference but in the past when I planted them for fall tomatoes ripening in the shorter cooler days of fall the Cowlicks was at least 10 days faster. I don't know but in your cooler climate I would definitely go with the Cowlick's over Sudduth.

Personally I would go with Limbaugh's Legacy because it is far quicker to ripen than most of the large pinks I have grown like Stump of the World, Sudduth's, Cowlick's, and Marianna's Peace.

The last few years, for me, Barlow Jap and German Johnson have beat out the Brandywines for flavor and production but not size and they are both earlier.

Bill

[b54red]

I got my Cowlick's seed from Camo and it nearly always does better than Sudduth's down here in the very deep south with our oppressive heat and humidity. It does not usually make larger fruit but the fruit are slightly firmer and the skin doesn't tend to split on the bottom of the fruit as happens regularly on Sudduth's down here. I still love them both but if asked to pick one it would be Cowlick's.

Thanks for sharing Camo.

Bill

[parah]

Originally Posted by b54red

Personally I would go with Limbaugh's Legacy because it is far quicker to ripen than most of the large pinks I have grown like Stump of the World, Sudduth's, Cowlick's, and Marianna's Peace.
Bill

Camochef and b54red in the same thread talking about Brandywines, tomato heaven.

If you two would write a book about your tomato experiences I would buy a couple of copies. Hey, it is half written just compile some of your best posts and mix with tomato porn.

b54red, I am suprised that Limbaugh's Legacy ripens quicker for you. When you say "ripen" do you mean Days to Maturity (DTM)

I thought Cowlicks is generally considered to have a faster DTM than Limbaugh's Legacy. Someone even had 59 DTM for Cowlicks! What am I misunderstanding, southern weather?

[JamesL]

Originally Posted by parah

Camochef and b54red in the same thread talking about Brandywines, tomato heaven.
If you two would write a book about your tomato experiences I would buy a couple of copies.

Good one Parah! And so true.

[parah]

If we wanted to to compare all the Brandywine variations... how would we do it?

20 plants of each variety all in the same climate controlled positive pressure greenhouse with sterile growing media and precisely metered automatic fertigation? Double blind tomato tastings!

The results might be scientifically useful, but would they be useful for helping home gardeners choose a Brandywine to grow?

[Sun City Linda]

I volunteer to test how all the varieties perform in a BLT

[dfollett]

In my opinion, the real arbiter of what determines if a 'strain' should be identified as a separate strain is time - time and people. If it has nothing special to offer that anyone cares about, it becomes irrelevant and goes away. If it sticks around - if it is passed around by advocates who have grown it and continue to recommend it - If it continues to be talked about and promoted and doesn't go away - it certainly deserves to be identified by something to differentiate it from the run-of-the-mill version of the same variety. That may or may not meet a rigorous definition of what a 'Strain' is, but so what? To answer the question that was asked several times - (if I grow some that show significantly lower production year after year, by the same token do I have a different strain?). Sure, but who cares? I'm sure there have been many folks who have tried to name their own 'strain' of 'Cherokee' this or 'Brandywine' whatever, that have never got traction in the growing community.

The example that has been used (or abused, depending on your point of view) in this dialog - Brandywine Cowlick's - certainly passes that test with flying colors. It is obviously different (and clearly better by many folk's definition) than other other Brandywines in some substantial ways. I want a way for the growing community to be able to identify and differentiate that from the run-of-the-mill. I much prefer identifying it as a different strain of Brandywine than renaming it - there is too much of that as it is. I have only grown two Brandywines - one, identified only as 'Brandywine' from a nursery was late, slow and produced 2 tomatoes. The other - a Brandywine Cowlick's I received in Tormato's swap, produced much earlier - by 2-3 weeks - and with significantly higher production. I want a way to differentiate the two.

I'm not a scientist or geneticist, but why wouldn't significantly more productivity (and earliness) justify calling it a strain?

Nuff said.

[Fusion_power]

I've grown Brandywine since first getting seed from Johnny's in the 1980's. My plants have been consistently high producers which is counter to many of the posts above.

Brandywine Sudduth - consistently high production, excellent slightly sweet flavor

Brandywine Cowlicks - very little difference from Sudduth

Earl's Faux - very little difference from Sudduth

Brandywine tends to be soft at full ripe and can't be shipped. It is often boat shaped with a huge core. Production can be erratic depending on climate conditions. Heat is more damaging to Brandywine than to most tomatoes because it reduces fruit set. Brandywine is highly susceptible to several foliage diseases such as septoria here in my hot humid climate. Nematodes love Brandywine roots.

[MrBig46]

Last year I grew Brandywine Black, Red Brandywine, Brandywine Sudduth's, Brandywine Cowlick's, Brandywine OTV, Brandywine Glick's and Earl's Faux. Brandywine Sudduth's was best., there is also important for me that BwSu is Heirloom tomato! This year I'll grow just Brandywine Sudduth's.
Vladimír

[gssgarden]

Newgardener wrote - My point is to respect/ appreciate other people's time/work/knowledge/contribution.

In no way did I, or do I disrespect someones contribution/work here. I am a HUGE fan of what people bring here. I'm here to observe and learn. Just like the rest of us. Whether it be Craig's, Carolyn's, Fusion's, Worth's, or even your opinion, thoughts or words. Or even the person who just chimes in with their experiences. That's why I'm here. To listen and learn. There are times when questions can be asked. Like mine. There was never a personal attack by me to Camo and his tomato so please, just ease up.

If there is something else you'd like to say, just PM me. Otherwise, drop it.

I said way back I have not grown it, and don't have any knowledge of it except for what was written here.

I wrote Tomato X because I didn't want to mention him, or his tomato name for sake of argument. Which didn't work.


Greg

[gssgarden]

dfollet - Thanks for the response!

It's a shame that a low producing tomato, which may have unbelievable taste, new strain and all will not make it on the market place. But that was one of my questions I asked.

Now as far as traits and strains. should the specific trait remain the same? i.e. foliage? Potato leaf is Potato leaf and should remain so throughout the existence of the strain?

The original finder of the 'strain' said - I'm sure that even my own seed now, is tainted from what it was 9-10 years ago.

That's what I don't understand. Should there be more guidelines? Longer grow outs? More details of those grow outs like the Dwarf project?

jmsieglaff said it best - I think the conversion is worth having, but what is worthy of naming a new strain will never be something universally agreed upon by all--at the end of the discussion, there will always be an agreement to disagree, at least a bit. The conversation is not pure science (I suppose unless you were doing full DNA analysis), but rather a fair amount of art mixed with science. Therefore there is not necessarily a 'right' answer.


I'll use my personal tomato as an example. My grandmother grew what is named now Shannon's for DECADES! As did my mother and father, brothers and sisters, and myself since I was little playing in their gardens as well as my own. I too have sent it all over the U.S. Europe and it's made it's way to Australia. I never asked anyone for a dime either. It's all about saving a variety and the great people here. It has never shown any changes that I can visually see. Either size, color, and foliage.

If it turns out that a green one pops up on a plant, and someone wants to name it, fine! Have at it. But should growing conditions warrant a name change or to be considered a new strain as well??

What grows well for me here in N.C. might grow exceptional out West. But get re-named as a new strain? hmmm...

I'm not trying to start some kind of tomato movement either! lol

It was said someone got a HUNDRED pounds of tomatoes from it. I have NEVER come close to that and would have to see it to believe it, but shouldn't that then be consistent throughout everyone's garden?

Greg

[camochef]

Originally Posted by b54red

Camo I may have the same black from GJ. This past year I had two of my German Johnson plants producing a large black tomato slightly less dark than some but with a flavor that surpassed everything else in the garden. I hope the seed I saved will be true so I can experience that wonderful tomato again.

I grew two each of Sudduth's and Cowlick's side by side for a comparison last spring. They both ripened at the same time with no difference but in the past when I planted them for fall tomatoes ripening in the shorter cooler days of fall the Cowlicks was at least 10 days faster. I don't know but in your cooler climate I would definitely go with the Cowlick's over Sudduth.

Personally I would go with Limbaugh's Legacy because it is far quicker to ripen than most of the large pinks I have grown like Stump of the World, Sudduth's, Cowlick's, and Marianna's Peace.

The last few years, for me, Barlow Jap and German Johnson have beat out the Brandywines for flavor and production but not size and they are both earlier.

Bill

Bill,
That's great! Were you using Dana's German Johnson-Benton Strain? or another German Johnson.
Mine was also the best tasting, by far, throughout the gardens. I simply assumed, that it was an unintentional cross with Bear Creek because it looked more like Bear Creek than the other two blacks I was growing that year. (Amazon Chocolate and Dana's Dusky Rose). Although I've been growing German Johnson-Benton Strain for about 8 years without ever seeing any sort of mutation, I guess there is that possibility. Also the fact that German Johnson-Benton Strain is R.L. yet the one I grew grafted to maxifort root stock produced a P.L. plant with all other characteristics being equal although it was more productive.
The black version is P.L. and came from the seed of the grafted plant.
I also realize that this is/was a thread about Brandywines and not other varieties, so I'll simply say that German Johnson-Benton Strain has tasted better than any of my favorite Brandywines for a few years now.
Good Luck with yours, Bill!
Enjoy!
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I've grown Brandywine since first getting seed from Johnny's in the 1980's. My plants have been consistently high producers which is counter to many of the posts above.

Brandywine Sudduth - consistently high production, excellent slightly sweet flavor

Brandywine Cowlicks - very little difference from Sudduth

Earl's Faux - very little difference from Sudduth

Brandywine tends to be soft at full ripe and can't be shipped. It is often boat shaped with a huge core. Production can be erratic depending on climate conditions. Heat is more damaging to Brandywine than to most tomatoes because it reduces fruit set. Brandywine is highly susceptible to several foliage diseases such as septoria here in my hot humid climate. Nematodes love Brandywine roots.

There are a few statements here that I find to be untrue in my gardens. The one that really ruffled my feathers was the one about having a huge core. None of my Pink Brandywines have huge cores, no matter what their name.
Cowlicks have always ripened at least two weeks sooner than other Pink Brandywines and usually longer than that compared to Sudduth's. While taste is similar, production isn't...at least up here.
Yes Brandywines have larger sized blossoms which require a little more attention to assure good pollination. I grow mine in custom made cages so it only takes a quick walk down the rows maybe twice a day to give the cages a gentle shake or two to increase pollination greatly.
I don't find foliage diseases to be any worse on Brandywines than I do on any other Pink Tomato. Better than some, like Limbaugh's Legacy or Stump of the World, which seem to be very susceptible in my gardens.
I've never had an issue with nematodes, but I do rotate crops yearly and entire gardens every few years.
Earl's Faux, Ed's Millennium, and a few other, in my opinion, really are Brandywines, that had other names attached to them over the years. Someday, someone might do DNA testing on them and we'll have a whole new ballgame!
Enjoy! and Happy gardening!
Camo

[camochef]

Originally Posted by parah

Camochef and b54red in the same thread talking about Brandywines, tomato heaven.

If you two would write a book about your tomato experiences I would buy a couple of copies. Hey, it is half written just compile some of your best posts and mix with tomato porn.

b54red, I am suprised that Limbaugh's Legacy ripens quicker for you. When you say "ripen" do you mean Days to Maturity (DTM)

I thought Cowlicks is generally considered to have a faster DTM than Limbaugh's Legacy. Someone even had 59 DTM for Cowlicks! What am I misunderstanding, southern weather?

The earliest I ever had a C-Brandywine ripen was 27 June. Have had other slicers ripen earlier, Lancaster County Pink, Barlow Jap, Liz Birt, Giant Belgium, Large Pink Bulgarian, to name a few. Depends on when seeds were started, transplanted then set out. The earliest I ever started seed was 26 Jan (2008) when I started 18 C-Brandywines. Transplanted them a couple times before being able to set out in gardens. (Cold Spring).
Most years I set plants out the first week of May and usually have to protect them overnights. Have started plants out last week of April, but that's rare. The past few years I set plants out when they are about 6-8 inches high, but have set out plants over 4 ft high in the past with late springs.
I've never had Limbaugh's Legacy ripen before any of my Pink Brandywines, although it has beaten my Yellows on occasion. Brandywines are usually 80-to 85 days to maturity. I've never been able to figure out where that timetable begins.
Good Luck!
Camo